Those Inaccurate Black and Gray Tank Sensors - Updated

Updated May 23, 2016

Both gray and black water tank levels now function reliably. The photo above was taken yesterday, after the cleaning of the gray tank. It now registers "empty" when empty, and with about four gallons in it shows 1/3 full.

After driving 250 miles with about 6 gallons of treated water in the gray tank I dumped it into a bucket.  I then added four gallons of fresh water and dumped the tank. I did so one more time until the macerator discharge was clear. I pumped the tank into a bucket so I could observe what came out of the tank.

Here is what came out of the gray tank after sloshing with the water/chemical mixture:

Before adding the chemical treatment, I dumped the tank, then added about eight gallons of fresh water and dumped it again. The water that came out was clear. I then put about 6 gallons of chemically treated water into the gray tank and let it sit for a couple of days, while driving about 250 miles.

The bucket shows what was pumped out after treating.

We've stopped using a popular dishwashing liquid and have switched to Dawn. G was resistant but she now sees the consequences.

DISCLAIMER - This information is provided as my amateur observations. It is not an endorsement or a recommendation for any product or method. Do your own research and follow all manufacturer's instructions for any product or procedure you may decide to use. I bear no responsibility for results or the lack of them.




Original Post May 18, 2016

Those point level gages on RVs are frequently inaccurate. For example, the gray tank in the photo is empty but the indicator displays two-thirds full. At the same time the black tank indicator was also non-responsive.

Our tank level gages have steadily worsened and after several months in an area with hard water they no longer respond to tank level changes. We dump, rinse the tanks and fill and the indicators never change.

We've read about a variety of treatments including rinsing with a solution of Dawn dishwashing liquid, using Borax, and even dumping ice cubes into the black tank via the toilet and letting it swish around for a while. I was convinced that hard water had fouled the sensors, leaving calcium deposits. So I tried several gallons of a 6% solution of vinegar. None of the things we tried worked.

I was told over at Facebook to give up. I decided more drastic measures were necessary.

I decided to try a chemical for the purpose. I followed the manufacturer's directions except I used a weaker solution. After putting about three gallons of a water/chemical mix into the empty black tank we continued on our trek and drove all day. About 12 hours later I dumped the tank, filled it with clear water and dumped it again.

After cleaning and dumping here is what the [black] tank indicator displays for an empty tank:

To test the tank sensor I again rinsed and dumped, It showed empt. I then poured two buckets of water into the toilet. That's about 3 to 4 gallons of water. The tank level indicator then showed two LEDs, or about one-third full.

I then pumped the contents of the black tank into a bucket. After dumping two buckets the tank was empty.

I then rechecked the tank level sensor and it again showed one LED which is an empty tank. Apparently the chemical cleaning had worked.

I'll next do the grey tank, but I'll have to wait until we have an all day trek so I can again let the mixture slosh around while we drive.

What Did I Use?
Before reading on I suggest you read the following disclaimer. I am neither promoting or recommending any treatment or product. I am reporting my personal experience. Yours might be different. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK.

DISCLAIMER
All content in this blog is provided for information purposes only. The information contained here should not be consider “expert” and not taken as specific advice. The author makes no representations as to the accuracy, completeness, or reliability of the information on this site or that is found by following any link. The information contained here and in the links may become outdated.The author will not be held liable for any errors or omissions in this information. The author will not be held liable for any losses, injuries, or damages from the use or display of this information.

The product I used is "Happy Camper Extreme Holding Tank Cleaner." Note: Follow the manufacturer's directions.

Refrigerator Thermometer Upgrade

I added a simple bulb-style thermometer to the RT to monitor the inside temperature. It worked well hung over a door shelf edge. But the other day I dropped it on the carpeted floor and the darn bulb cracked.

I had purchased an inside/outside digital thermometer for another purpose but decided to try it in the refrigerator. It works great. Here's a photo of the display unit and the remote sender. I had taken the remote out of the refrigerator about a minute prior to taking the photo. "Out" is the temp on the top door shelf  of the refrigerator.

It is frustrating that the simple bulb type broke. I prefer simple. But the remote does have the advantage of allowing display of the temperature with the refrigerator door closed. 

Here's a photo of the type which broke, before the glass bulb was fractured:

18 Months of Improvements [Now at 84 months]

Note:

1. You will find posts elsewhere in this blog for some of these, which detail the actual install and provide further insights.
2. I also have videos detailing some of these as well as treks on my YouTube Channel. Here's a link:   Link to My YouTube Channel
3. If you are a new Roadtrek owner I suggest you consider 1) A power protection device, 2) A water filter, 3) A water pressure regulator, 4) a 750/1500 Watt ceramic heater. All of the other modifications I made were based upon my actual experiences and perceived needs. You should use your actual experiences to be your guides for what you add, or purchase, to your Roadtrek.  
4. Some of the following I'd call "gadgets" and one of these days I'll post a complete list of the gadgets and useful things I've added. 
5. It is my understanding that Thetford no longer makes the Sanicon hose.  (2020). However, Home Depot sells 1-1/4" diameter flexible sump pump hose. I haven't tried it. 
   

Edited to add #15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21.
Added #23, 24, 25
July 2017, updated #25, added #26"The list goes on."
January 2018 added electric heater info
October 2018 added water meter.
March 2021 Added Sanicon note (item #16)

Originally posted as "18 Months of Tweaks"

Thursday, September 24, 2015

Note: These were all a consequence of our experiences during our first several treks. "Official" outdoor temperatures ranged from 9F to 103F. We completed the first 13 modification in the 18 months of purchase and the first 15,000 miles. We have added modifications #14 and so on in the months thereafter.

This is a brief list of the tweaks or additions to the Roadtrek. I thought it might be useful to list the mods to my 210P. Not that many, actually. Most of these were documented elsewhere on this blog. These are in no particular order. [I'll update this from time to time with more recent modifications.]

1. I added a 50 watt solar panel and solar charger for the AGM coach batteries. This primarily because for the first two winters it was stored in a place which doesn't have 120VAC available and I didn't want to remove the batteries for the winter. I ran the generator about every other week to supplement the solar charge and exercise the generator, weather permitting.

2. Progressive Industries hard wired power and surge protection device with readout mounted in the coach. The device was installed in an exterior compartment with 30A twist-lock connectors for easy bypass or removal. The coach readout does include a bypass select, current, Hz, volts, fault and previous fault readouts. 

Progressive Industries Power Protection Device

3. Improved backup camera - color with transmitter/receiver (no front to back wiring required). This became a necessity when the onboard radio/GPS/monitor died. With a trip about a week away I decided it was expedient to add a second "selectable on" camera and deal with the radio issue at a later time. With Roadtrek's assistance it was determined it was the Scosche intelligent bus controller. To get to it required tearing the entire dash apart. After fixing the power to the radio we decided we like the improved all-time color monitor and camera and use it in traffic situations. 

4. Internal/external temperature monitors. Simple home, battery operated system with a wireless remote mounted in rear storage compartment to monitor outside temperature. The smaller can also be used to monitor the interior temperature of the refrigerator.

Ambient and remote temperature monitor - great for refrigerator

Ambient and remote temperature monitors - the remote is in an outside compartment

5. Improved LED dimmable lighting. Added a 16 ft flexible strip the length of the coach and around the rear. Includes remote control for selection of color and intensity. Wonderful nighttime lighting improvement.

Dimmable LED light strip

6. Outside 120VAC receptacle. This is a "made to fit" heavy duty extension cord permanently routed to the coach battery compartment. When not in use it is unplugged, depowering the outside end. I plug it into the ground fault protected outlet inside the side door when I want to power it up. This became a necessity when I found that many of the 120V auxiliary receptacles at campgrounds don't work; this is because the ground fault protectors are always tripped and won't reset, even with nothing plugged in. So my extension cords for inductive cooking or outside lighting were useless. I didn't want to run them under or through an open door so this was the solution. 

7. Reflectix cut for all windows except the side entry.

8. Moveable sun sail. Usually we put this at the front of the vehicle. Significant improvement to the interior temperature when camping in full sun.

Sunshade and Reflectix

9. Supplemental Portable Electric Heat. We use a 750/1500 watt electric ceramic heater to put a load on the Onan generator. It also heats the interior when nighttime temperatures are below 50F. This allows us to become creative about energy use and is a backup for the heat pump and the propane furnace. Setting it below the thermostat of the heat pump allows for supplemental heat. It is also a great way to exercise the generator. Not really a "modification" but then, one does need a load when running the generator and this is it.

Portable 750/1500 Watt 120VAC electric heater

10. Additional supplemental electric heat. After nights down to 5F I decided I wanted a low wattage heater for the front of the Roadtrek, to help with that large glass frontal heat loss area. Even with Reflectix (R-1.0) a lot of heat is lost. I experimented with a flat panel heater in the travel trailer and it worked very well. We have a 250 watt version for the Roadtrek (about 18x23 inches and 1/2 inch thick). I also have a programmable digital thermostat because the heater only has an Off-On switch. So far this winter (2017-2018) we've avoided the circumstances in which it would be required. Caution: the surface of this type of heater panel can get HOT. Which is why we have not yet used it in the close confines of the Roadtrek Class B.

11. Front fan to distribute air in the front of the vehicle. This 12V rectangular fan with side air inlets sets in the tray above the passenger door and improves the temperature, both hot and cold, via improved air distribution. In the summer, when used with the sun sail and reflectix it makes for a much more comfortable front end of the vehicle, if parked in full sun.

12 VDC fan

12. Finger bump preventer for side door screen. Added an aluminum angle because it was too easy to push against the door to open it and bump the screen when exiting. Doing so would push the screen out of it's mounting.

13. Inductive electric burner. This is an electric appliance and is portable but it has proven to be so handy I included it here. We do a lot of cooking when on the road and when it's hot or warm, cooking outdoors is a natural. We even cook breakfast outdoors using this. [This week I made donuts at our site using a cast iron skillet - Lodge, of course!] The burner works best with cast iron skillets but I do have an iron plate for use with aluminum pans (shouldn't boil water in cast iron, or cook acidic things like tomato soup). To provide some idea of how little propane we use, we filled our propane tank this spring and use it primarily for hot water. The readout currently shows 2/3 full. But, as these readouts are known to be unreliable, we really don't know how full or empty it is.

Inductive electric cooktop with iron heat transfer device
Inductive cooktop requires iron and stainless steel pots do not work

Cast iron griddle on induction electric cooktop

Inductive electric cooktop with cast iron

14. A small propane BBQ. This is another appliance but we prefer to cook outdoors when possible. This keeps the interior humidity lower and ditto for the temperature in summer.We use small disposable (recyclable) cylinders. Not the cheapest approach and the 210P does have a rear connection for a propane appliance. But we usually cook on the exterior passenger side of the vehicle and in the shade of the awning (but not necessarily under it).

Propane BBQ

Preparing a small feast made with the propane BBQ and the induction electric cooktop with cast iron skillet

15. Hockey puck LED tap lights. These are powered by AA batteries and we purchased a pack of five and placed them in overhead compartments.

Battery powered hockey puck light

16. How could I forget? Replaced the standard Roadtrek Macerator dump hose with a Thetford Sanicon 21 ft flexible hose extension for macerator. Thetford #70424. On one of our first treks, the standard Roadtrek dump hose would not reach to the dump point. Had to start and back onto a road to dump. This was my [second] mod to the 210P. It is my understanding that Thetford no longer makes the Sanicon hose.  (2020). However, Home Depot sells 1-1/4" diameter flexible sump pump hose. I haven't tried it. 

Thetford Sanicon macerator dump hose, extends about 20 feet.

17. First thing we added was a Maxx-Air vent cover. We went with the "smoke" color and had the dealer add this the morning we picked up the 210P. Now, I gotta say that on the 210P it is ugly. But, it is really functional. We don't worry about rain, or bugs or bird nests, or forgetting to lower the Maxx Fan cover when travelling, or parked on a bluff when a nasty thunderstorm comes up. 

Maxx Fan cover

18. Added two small fans with thermostat to improve the temperature in the area behind the refrigerator. We had experienced some difficulties, most notably in TX at 100F. Sun load on that side of the vehicle was sometimes a problem.  We can't always find shade or park in the orientation we would prefer to the sun. 

Whisper fans to help cool the Refrigerator compartment

19. Dual control electric blanket. This was a really pleasant addition. We camp in 3-1/2 seasons which means down to zero degrees F. An electric blanket is superior to a sleeping bag because it adds supplemental heat beyond that generated by the occupant. I'm a long term "ground camper" and so I do know all of the alternatives. But if one wants their spouse or anyone who is not an outdoors woman (or outdoorsman) to be comfortable when the outside drops below 32F, I suggest this approach.

Marketing photo of the electric blanket - Ours has dual controls

20. I added a custom screen to the passenger side window to improve ventilation. This is attached with magnets. 

Side window screening

21. I added custom screens to the furnace outlet, hot water heater grill and the refrigerator openings. These are held in place with magnets. For the refrigerator I epoxied steel washers to the inside of the cover. The magnets adhere to the washers. The purpose of this is to prevent 'critters' of any kind from moving in. 

Covers for furnace vent

22. Last year (2014) we spent extended periods of time in areas with very hard water. I do have a water pressure regulator and a filter on the RT. However, I noticed deposits forming on the faucets and then the check valve at the city water inlet stuck in the "open" position. I purchased an "On-the-Go" portable softener and it works well. However, that's one more thing to carry!. I did clean the deposits from the check valve by removing the screen at the inlet, and then with a short piece of hose I poured vinegar directly into it and with the hose full I let it set for a day, then removed the hose and pushed the check valve in, added more vinegar and so on. I did this repeatedly and it cleaned up the valve and it works fine.

Portable water softener

23. At 36 months I replaced the coach batteries. These simply didn't provide the capacity as published. This didn't seem to be a problem as we seldom "boondocked" for more than a day off of shore power. However, in the second year we spent longer periods off power and noticed that the batteries didn't seem to provide the expected duration of power. The status LEDs would indicate "C" for charging when on shore power or solar and then "F" for full charge when running on coach battery power. I measured the voltage at the battery terminals and began comparing to a charge table for AGM batteries. The "L-F-G-C" indicator would indicate "G" or Good when the battery was at 60% DoD (depth of discharge) or lower. While AGMs can be discharged 80%, it is my understanding that repeatedly discharging below 50% will shorten the life significantly. I decided to put a better battery monitor on my list. See item 25. I measured the amperes draw and concluded the battery terminal voltage was dropping more rapidly than expected. We probably were getting about the equivalent of a 120Ah battery, and I assume the batteries were nearing end of useful life. 

Approximately 220Ah AGM batteries

24. Purchased a battery monitor with shunt. I am also considering adding a disconnect for the coach batteries, but I have concluded that would not be easily accomplished. Shortly after purchase of the Roadtrek I added a portable 50W solar panel and controller to charge these batteries. However, there are now times I store the RT and disconnecting the coach batteries is probably the best solution if I don't want to use the solar panel.  I've assembled the case for the meter, run the wiring and installed a shunt. Next will be the actual installation (July 2017).

Digital voltmeter-ammeter for coach batteries.

25. I got tired of struggling to attach the fresh water hose. It took two hands to unscrew the plastic cap to the plastic fitting inside the compartment. After some research I purchased a fitting of brass which I attached to the fresh water inlet. As a bonus it includes a ball valve. I attached a small length of hose to this, which I never remove. I can now more easily remove the longer length of hose. The photo includes "after" and "before" views, but without the short piece of hose attached.


26. Water Meter.  Helpful when filling the inside tank, which has approximately 10 gallon capacity.

Water meter for hose

Copyright (C) 2019, 2021 All Rights Reserved - Norman Retzke

Passive versus Active energy systems while Trekking

A Passive Solar Energy Device

When trekking we take advantage of both active and passive temperature control and other systems. Of course simple conservation is the best passive system to use, in my opinion. By practicing this hot water and energy requirements are reduced. Judicious approaches to cooking also reduce energy requirements, even if propane or other fuels are used. Solar power has a significant advantage over other energy sources if plentiful sunlight is available. This is particularly true for those planning on spending long periods in the camper or RV with a preference not to be "plugged in". However, solar power is not "free." The solar energy collection and storage systems had to be built, have to be maintained and they do have a finite lifespan. There is a cost for that and while it is possible that some of the systems will have a 10 year lifetime or even longer, some approaches will not. In other words, all solar and battery systems are not equal.

The sun sail in the photo above is an example of a "passive" solar system. It doesn't use energy nor does it rely upon mechanical devices. The awning on the side of the vehicle can shield most of that side from the heat of the sun. Reflectix reflective bubble pack in windows is another. The screen on the rear door is a third example of passive temperature control. These things, when used together can assist in regulating the interior temperature.  By orienting the vehicle to the sun and using these techniques, the interior temperature can be improved in both hot and cold weather.

Of course, many of our homes also use passive systems such as insulation, south facing windows for winter solar heat and so on.

Other passive approaches used when RVing include simple orientation of the vehicle to the sun's solar radiation (infrared energy). In the summer this includes parking the vehicle in the shade to reduce interior temperatures. In the winter, parking it in the sun and allowing entry of sunlight through windows is a method to increase interior temperatures. This is effective because the infrared energy from the sun is converted to heat on striking an object. Certain colors absorb more infrared than others. Black, for example is an excellent energy absorber while white or highly reflective surfaces absorb less energy. Infrared which is reflected is not converted to heat, so to maximize heating we attempt to reflect as little sunlight as possible. For minimum heating we do just the opposite and reflect as much sunlight as possible.

Active systems include the use of electrical energy from a variety of sources. These include the 50A or 30A, 120VAC shore power connectors on RVs and the solar panels many come equipped with and the battery systems. The solar panels, controllers, batteries and inverters are active systems because they collect and store that solar energy, and then later convert it for use in heating, cooling, cooking and so on.

An Active Solar Energy Device

Solar on Full Sun

Of course, if the vehicle is equipped with roof top solar panels, then it may be a necessity to park in the sun to take maximum advantage of the solar energy which is available and to avoid depleting the batteries. So, there are trade-offs with such active systems. Some get around that with smaller portable solar panels which can be set up 10 or more feet from the vehicle and oriented as desired. This approach has the advantage of allowing the vehicle to be parked in the shade for cooling, while energy is collected and stored by the solar panel(s) which are in the sun. Of course, portable solar panels can't collect energy while stored in the vehicle and rooftop collectors can. So there are trade-offs to all approaches. Of course, one can use both rooftop and portable solar collectors and get the best of both worlds.

Further passive temperature control in the vehicle can be accomplished by opening widows or door(s). With the vehicle in the shade, the windows and/or doors open and good airflow, the interior temperature will be the lowest possible and will approach the outside temperature. If in the sun, with a sun sail properly positioned and the awning extended the interior temperature will be lower than it would otherwise be in full sun.  Vehicle color also plays a part. Certain colors such as black generally absorb more infrared energy while white reflects more energy.

Cooking is another opportunity for use of passive systems. Simply cooking outdoors will lower the interior temperature of the vehicle. It will also lower the relative humidity. Boiling liquids creates steam and that may lead to discomfiture and even water on cooler surfaces. There are also a variety of solar cookers on the market. If the desire is to reduce consumption of energy in the vehicle, then cooking over a wooden fire is always an option, assuming suitable firewood is available. People have been making "solar tea" forever; all it takes is a glass jar and a tea bag. If the vehicle has sufficient batteries and solar collectors, then an inductive cooktop can be used inside or outside the vehicle.

Even active system benefits can be improved and extended by use. For example, most vehicles which have coach batteries include an inverter. The inverter may also be used to control the charging of the batteries while the vehicle is on shore power (120VAC) or the vehicle engine or generator are running. However, the primary purpose of the inverter is to convert 12VDC from the batteries to 120VAC at 60 hertz (Hz). Unfortunately, using an inverter will more rapidly deplete the stored energy of the batteries because inverters are not 100% efficient. During the inversion, some DC is used, or lost, primarily as heat. That heat may also be transferred to the interior of the vehicle. So, to maximize battery power available, it is best to use 12VDC devices and avoid the inverter all together. Many plug-in devices such as laptops, or cellphones and other electronic devices can run or be charged on 12VDC. For additional interior "cooling" there are 12VDC fans available, and even for refrigerator compartment cooling a 12VDC fan is frequently used.

Using passive systems may require a shift in one's thinking and approach to some activities. It may require a change in awareness, and an inquiry into "what am I hoping to accomplish here and how can I reduce the energy required?" However, a lot of this becomes habit after a while. For example, on cool mornings we generally cook indoors and use that heat to increase the interior temperature. Later, when the outdoor temperatures are at their peak, we may cook outside to maintain interior comfort levels. This approach is necessary for other tasks such as water consumption. True, there are passive water sterilization techniques and ground campers and backpackers use them all the time. However, there is a limited capacity to the grey and black water tanks. One needs to determine just how much of a "camping" experience their trekking is to be. Many of us want it to be less camping and more like home. Simultaneously we prefer to minimize the use of shore power, generators and extend the time until the grey and black tanks are full. If so, that desire becomes a driving force for better and more flexible energy sources in our trekking vehicles. It also provides a motivation to be better trekkers.