Arizona to Florida to Northern Lily Pad April 2018

Distance for this leg? About 3,600 miles

We've completed this trek. Total of 6,239  miles and 164 days. The return from AZ to the northland via Florida, etc. was 4,045 miles over 18 days. We made multiple stops. Most recent update is Day 17, National Museum of the U.S. Air Force.  We returned to our Illinois location on the 18th day of this blog post.  I've included a few links to photo albums which expand on the photos included in this post.

Location , according to Verizon Hum

Current location: We've trekked beyond Illinois "Land of Madigan" or as we know it "Madiganstan", today (May 5) on to Michigan.

7:30 pm May 5

Tip of the Trip: We made reservations for each stop. That is important in Spring with RVers traversing the country, snowbirders returning home and so on. Some campgrounds close their offices early on weekends (e.g. at 3pm on Sunday) and not all campgrounds allow one to drive in after office hours and pick a spot. So it is important to call ahead, even if only 4-8 hours to assure that spot. Generally we don't wait until the "day of" to plan a nighttime stop. Of course, we can always boondock at a truck stop if necessary. I did map-out the trek from AZ to FL well in advance, picking overnight stops with G and duration of those stops. I use a 2013 version of Microsoft "Streets and Trips" on my PC.

SR-71 "Blackbird", X-15 and B-70 at the National Museum of the U.S. Air Force, Dayton OH

Click here to go to Day 2 in this post - Schulenburg, TX.

Click here to go to Day 3 in this post - Schulenburg, La Grange, etc.

Click here to go to Day 4 in this post - Onward to Bay St, Louis, MS.

Click here to go to Day 5 in this post - Arrived on the Gulf of Mexico.

Click here to go to Day 6 in this post - Relaxing on the Gulf of Mexico.

Click here to go to Day 7 in this post - On the "Forgotten Coast".

Click here to go to Day 8 in this post - St. George Island State Park.

Click here to go to the afternoon of Day 8 in this post - Apalachicola National Estuarine Research Reserve  and the Pesky Pelican Grill.

Click here to go to Day 9 in this post - Apalachicola vintage car and boat show.

Click here to go to Day 10&11 Bradenton, FL.

Click here to go to Day 12, Sebring, FL.

Click here to go to Day 13, Headed to Savanna, GA.

Click here to go to Day 14, Savanna, GA.

Click here to go to Day 15, Savanna To Asheville, NC.

Click here to go to Day 16, 70 miles of the Blue Ridge Parkway.

Click here to go to Day 17, National Museum of the U.S. Air Force, Dayton OH.


Day 1 (April 13), on to Fort Stockton
We are en-route. Left Arizona and headed east on I-10 to our first stop was Fort Stockton, Texas.  Eight hours of driving at an average speed of 70 MPH. Total mileage for the day 562. Left the resort gate in AZ at about 10:00am and arrived at our overnight destination in TX at about 5:45pm, AZ time.  However, there is a two hour time difference so our arrival was at 7:46pm local time. The speed limit on I-10 is 80 MPH and so I travelled with traffic.

We were supposed to be fully prepared the night before, but we had packing, final goodbyes including a dinner the day before, and I had a board meeting which took about two hours.  So we had some final packing to do and were up at 5:30am. After goodbyes and closing down our AZ location we were finally on the road at about 10:00am.

Day 1 - A Massive Dust Storm
We departed but soon caught up with the high winds we'd had in AZ a day earlier. It was a dust storm. G was a bit shocked by the size of some of the tumbleweeds blowing across the interstate. Visibility was good, but there was a constant haze. We were travelling west to east. That was good because we weren't driving into the wind.  We decided to press on and relax later in this trek.

We arrived at Fort Stockton and after setting up we took a brief walk around the campground. The haze was beginning to settle at sunset.  G warmed up some pizza and after that I logged on for email, handled a few, and went to bed about 11:00 pm, local time.

Sunset as the dust storm abates

Day 2.
Day 2 (April `4), Schulenburg TX
We had a simple breakfast at the Road Runner Cafe in the campground (eggs, sausage and biscuit with really good coffee). We went back 2 miles to get gas to continue on our trek. I had decided to get to the campground before the office closed the night before so I delayed refuelling until this morning.

We headed east on I-10 toward Schulenburg bypassing San Antonio on 1604 (under construction). We will be attending the Schulenburg Sausage Fest. A once a year activity in the town with music, dancing in the street, beer and a lot of sausage.  Great sausage, with sampling stations and sandwiches for purchase, etc.

We arrived at our campsite at about 3:55PM, checked in and then headed several blocks to the Sausagefest.  "The only festival in Texas to have a Sausage making contest! Cook off also features homemade wine, sauerkraut, and pickles. Dancing in the street to live music, children's activities, food, arts and crafts, and so much more! We hope you can make it out to this year's event!"

We had a snack of sausage on a wrap with sauerkraut. Very tasty. Two of these and two bottles of water for $10.

Sausage and sauerkraut on a wrap

Sausage Awards

Sauerkraut awards

We returned to the campsite for the remainder of the evening

Day 3.

Day 3 (April 15), Painted Churches of Schulenburg, Texas, Piano Bridge, Kolaches, Nuts and Bluebonnets
Schulenburg has some of the best examples of painted churches. These were built by immigrants who, lacking stone and the other things used for building churches in Europe painted the interiors in spectacular ways. Here's a link:

https://www.traveltexas.com/trip-guides/painted-churches-of-texas

Be aware that the churches are open for services on Sunday and are open for daily tours Monday-Saturday.  At other times they are closed. So plan your trip!


St. Mary Catholic Church - High Hill, TX

La Grange, TX
Today we'll be doing some local site seeing.  We intend to go north on I-77 to the Piano Bridge Road (615) and then east to the bridge. Then on to La Grange TX.

At the Piano Bridge

The Piano Bridge

Piano Bridge - Dated 1885

On the bridge

On the bridge

Headed to Weikel's Bakery in La Grange, TX for some kolaches:

A case of kolaches and other baked goods

Cookies and other goodies, too.

Bluebonnets bloom in April:

A field in La Grange, TX

Purple Martins

Back to Schulenburg to get some pecans:

Potter Country Store

The sign on the washrooms, out back

Back in Schulenburg, time for dinner and the First of the Day:

First of the Day at Lucy Tequilas Bar and Grill

Tex Mex Salad

G had a Taco Salad

Day 4.
Day 4 - Onward to Bay St. Louis, MS

We began at 7:30am and pulled into the campground in Bay St. Louis about 9 hours later. Total miles for the day was 517. We decided to alter our route to allow a more scenic day and to avoid Houston. That required going north to US-290 and east, finally reconnecting with I-10 in Beaumont, TX. Below is a map of the altered route. That added a few miles. Taking local roads and highways was slower than the interstate which was generally posted at 65-70 MPH. But average driving speed was nevertheless about 55 MPH. The planned distance was 509.3 miles and estimated driving time of 8 hours. Minor construction delays and gas/meal stops added an hour to this.

Altered route to Bay St, Louis, mostly on local roads. 

We arrived a bit late in the day to visit NASA’s John C. Stennis rocket testing center. Last bus tour of the day is 3:00 pm.

https://www.nasa.gov/centers/stennis/home/index.html

I’ll post photos after I’ve had the opportunity to go through them.

Here's the view from G's seat travelling north on US77 at 8:06am:

Travelling through Tomball, TX:

Crossing Lake Houston, 10:45am:

How often do you pass a grade school with ponies grazing on the front lawn?

School with ponies grazing

Exxon polypropylene plant under construction near Beaumont. Polypropylene is a plastic used in high-performance automotive, appliance and packaging applications:

Entering Louisiana

Crossing Lake Bigeux, LA

Still ahead, the Mississippi River! (Photos coming).

At about 4:45pm, we were parked in our campsite for the night:

Tomorrow we have 350 miles to go to reach our Florida Destination.

Meanwhile, this is the Weather Channel prediction for Wednesday. I think it will be a while before we return to the Northland:

Weather Channel Prediction - Midwest, April 18, 2018

Day 5.
Day 5 - Arrive on the Gulf Coast of Florida
We'll be spending a few days on the Gulf Coast. Our campsite is at the water.  Today we drove about 398 miles. We departed at 7:30am, stopped for breakfast and for lunch along the way. Lunch was about an hour because service was slow. Our average speed while the engine was running was about 64 MPH according to the Chevy's computer. I-10 was 70 MPH and local highways 35-55 MPH.  We travelled with traffic, generally in the middle lane.

The next photo shows our Roadtrek at the campsite, 1,949 miles and a few stops after we began this trek.

Camping on the Gulf of Mexico - end of today's trek

USS Alabama at Mobile's Battleship Park

USS Alabama

On I-10

Tate's Hell State Forest
During a past trek we drove through nearby Tate's Hell State Forest. It is an interesting drive along a winding two lane road with no shoulder. Not forgiving if one strays from the road in a Class B RV. On that earlier trek as we approached a curve a logging truck came around it at high speed in our direction and in our lane! Obviously he didn't expect to encounter anyone on that road.

We barely avoided an accident. Since then, G says she prefers to take another route. We haven't been back into that forest.

According to the Florida Department of Agriculture "The natural resources found on Tate's Hell State Forest are very diverse due to the unique and various natural community types. At one time Tate's Hell State Forest supported at least 12 major community types, which included wet flatwoods, wet prairie, seepage slope, baygall, floodplain forest, floodplain swamp, basin swamp, upland hardwood forest, sandhill, pine ridges, dense titi thickets and scrub. Currently, the forest contains approximately 107,300 acres of hydric communities such as wet prairie (contains a vast diversity of plant species), wet flatwoods, strand swamp, bottomland forest, baygall and floodplain swamp. Past management practices have disrupted the function of the natural ecosystems on Tate's Hell State Forest. The restoration of these ecosystems is a primary objective of the Florida Forest Service."

The Legend of Tate's Hell...

A tale that has been told for many years recounts how Tate's Hell Swamp got its name. Local legend has it that a farmer by the name of Cebe Tate, armed with only a shotgun and accompanied by his hunting dogs, journeyed into the swamp in search of a panther that was killing his livestock. Although there are several versions of this story, the most common describes Tate as being lost in the swamp for seven days and nights, bitten by a snake, and drinking from the murky waters to curb his thirst. Finally he came to a clearing near Carrabelle, living only long enough to murmur the words, "My name is Cebe Tate, and I just came from Hell." Cebe Tate's adventure took place in 1875 and ever since, the area has been known as Tate's Hell, the legendary and forbidden swamp.

At our campground:

Birds feeding at sunset as low tide approaches

Day 6.
Day 6 - Relaxing on the Gulf
Well, it is dawn and G is snoozing. I am making coffee. We'll be here for four or five days, exploring the area. Wish I had an inflatable canoe, but I did bring the fishing pole. Today will probably be an easy day. I've got some condo board work to do, and G has some writing. A nice spot for these tasks.

Dawn

Dawn

The fisherfolk are hoping for a catch

A patient shore bird looking for a meal

Sometimes, when you think you are being watched, you really are being watched

Keeps the bugs under control

Dusk at our site

Pelicans hoping for a fishy treat at the pier cleaning station

Day 7.
On the "Forgotten Coast"
This is a relatively quiet, undeveloped section of Florida coastline stretching from Mexico Beach on the Gulf of Mexico to Shell Point Beach. The nearest large city is Tallahassee, Florida. The name "Florida's Forgotten Coast" is a registered trademark of the Apalachicola Bay Chamber of Commerce.

Breakfast on the "Forgotten Coast"

Heron Strolling By

Hanging out

Another opportunity on the pier

Fishing from a kayak

There is a constant stream of shore birds

Time for a little exploring, and lunch!

Entering Carrabelle from the West

Lunch Stop

Cajun Shrimp Basket, cheese grits, hush puppy, cole slaw & fries

Fried oyster basket

West on US 98 toward St. George Island - "Forgotten Coast" 

St. George Island Lighthouse

Lighthouse Marker

G on the beach

Enough Nature - time for an ice cream

US98 leaving St. George Island

Lots of pelicans, some low flyers

St. George Island at dusk

Day 8.
Visiting St. George Island State Park
Today we revisited St. George Island to see the state park. We did some other sightseeing, too.  We got up slightly after dawn and G wrote post cards while I packed the Roadtrek for a day trip. Breakfast was light and while G dropped off the post cards at the Carrabelle Post Office I got a cup of coffee across the street at the Carrabelle Junction. We then headed toward the State Park.

Dawn from our campsite

G writes postcards while I back up the RV

Meanwhile, the fishermen are doing their best
2500mm focal length, 1/250 sec, f6.4

On the way to the State Park

The bridge sign says "Look out for birds" and those pelicans are big and do get close

Some nice beach houses on the island

A few representative beach houses

At the entry of the state park

Ir's a scenic highway

View as we drive through the gate

Notice the turtle

We stopped at one of the beach entry points. Mild, mid 70s but the wind had picked up

Feeding the wildlife is a problem. Here's a sign to get the point across

G walking the beach

It is a miles long beach - View south

The view north

Add caption

Lots of space for a private conversation

sand and trees across the East Slough

the road through the park is 25 MPH with soft sand and no shoulders if you stray 

G headed to the beach at the East Slough Area

Chillin'

just a few gulls

standing into the wind

flying into the wind

On the walk to the East Slough Area

continuing on the wooden ramps

Very fragrant with the pines. 

on the East Slough Walk

on the East Slough Walk

on the East Slough Walk

Walking back to the car, but not on the dunes

Back to the Roadtrek

Next stop: the Apalachicola National Estuarine Research Reserve and then a meal!


Day 8, continued.

At the Apalachicola National Estuarine Research Reserve

Under the canopy of tall pines at the Apalachicola National Estuarine Research Reserve:

Now for a meal at the Pesky Pelican Grill in Eastpoint!

Yep, those are oyster shells. This is prime oyster country, since 1898

Gumbo, already half gone. We  split a shrimp po' boy sandwich, too

On the patio, on the bay and within view of those pesky pelicans

Your pelican crew is ready!

We took a piece of Key Lime Pie to go and had it the next day

Back "home"

Day 9.
Day 9 in this post - Apalachicola vintage car and boat show.
The day began overcast so we went to the car and boat show. Here's a few photos and I'll post more tonight.

After the show we returned to the campground and sat on the bay. We had a visitor:

April 22, 2018 6:20pm EDT added a few photos:

Norm at the surfer's car. It is for sale!

Day 10&11.
Day 10 and 11 in this post - Bradenton, FL.
We spent a couple of days in Bradenton. FL.  Visiting relatives, doing the laundry, walking along the Riverwalk and so on.

Woodpecker at dawn

Our campsite view

Our alligator neighbor

At the pool at dawn

At dawn, color version

Poolside visitor

On the riverwalk

Day 12.
Day 12 in this post - Sebring, FL.
Today is a one day stay in Sebring. FL to visit friends.  After the day together we all went to the Cowpoke Watering Hole for a good dinner.

We shared an appetizer of Caprese Crackers, which was fried green tomatoes with a thin topping of mozzarella cheese and fresh basil.. Our main course was Pork Osso Bucco with veggies and mashed potatoes for G. I had Steak Chimichurri salad. Dessert was Florida Orange Cake.

We stayed at a very friendly and layback RV park, on the road less travelled

Day 13.
Day 13 in this post - On to the Northland slowly - To Savannah, GA.
It seems that the northland is finally thawing and may remain above freezing. We decided to return and are spending the night in Savannah, Ga. Tomorrow we'll take the Savannah Trolley Tour into the city. The trolley goes to our campground and picks us up at 9:00 am and returns us at 4:30 pm. This is a "Hop On - Hop Off" all day tour of the Victorian District, City Market, River Street, Chippewa Square and Historic District.

If we decide to return earlier we can take a municipal bus back to our campsite. Should be enjoyable.

The Dames Point Bridge (officially the Napoleon Bonaparte Broward Bridge) over the St. Johns River in Jacksonville, Florida on the Interstate 295 East Beltway.

At the campground

Environmentally friendly 120VAC receptacle

The campground has an antique shop

Bench for the 9:00am tour pickup

Day 14.
We spent the day in Savannah, GA. Here are a few photos, and a link to a larger photo album:

Chippewa Square

Monterey Square

Forsyth Park

Troup Square

Johnson Square

Wright Square

Lutheran church of the Ascension

Lunch at Wilkes House

Lunch at Wilkes House

Lunch at Wilkes House

Blueberry Cobbler at Wilkes House

St. John the Baptist Catholic Church

St. John the Baptist Catholic Church

Boar's Head Tavern

Savannah River

River Street Pedestrian Access

River Street

Leopold's Ice Cream

A larger photo collection of our day in Savannah, Georgia:

Click for Norm's Savannah Photo Album

Statistics and miles travelled in April, as of our arrival in Savannah

Day 15.
We spent the day travelling from Savannah, GA to Asheville, NC. We arrived at our campsite mid-afternoon. Tomorrow the Blue Ridge Parkway, if weather permits.

Crossing the Savannah River in the morning. G got this shot

Crossing the Savannah River

I-26 Northbound, toward Spartanburg

The weather ahead appeared to be overcast. On arrival in Asheville some of the campers told us they had three days of severe rain, which finally ended in the night.

About an hour from Asheville we get a view of the mountains

At Asheville we encountered slow traffic

On the Campground entry road

Setup in the Campground

We setup in the campground, took a nice walk and had dinner. We then began planning tomorrow's specific route and the things we want to see.

The weather can change rapidly in the mountains and there can be fog in the morning. There are live webcams available and we'll be checking them before we go to breakfast:

http://www.brpwebcams.com/


Among other things we hope to visit the Folk Art Center:

https://www.nps.gov/blri/planyourvisit/folk-art-center.htm


Day 16.
We began the day travelling 70 miles of the Blue Ridge Parkway in North Carolina and it included a stop at the Folk Art Center and the Switzerland Inn.

8:00 am at the diner

Folk Art Museum

Folk Art Museum

Folk Art Museum

Tanbark Ridge

Tanbark Ridge

Graybeard Mountain

Green Knob

Switzerland Inn

For more photos, go to this link:

https://plus.google.com/collection/YLJjZE


Day 17.
This was our final stop enroute. We spent a good part of the afternoon in the National Museum of the U.S. Air Force in Dayton OH.

Here are a few photos, and I've put more on my G+ photo album site, which is at the following link. Click on "View All" at the link to bring up some of the photo collections which aren't shown on the main page:

Norms G+ Photo Albums

Here's a link to the Air Force Museum collection:

https://plus.google.com/collection/4XYyTF

SR-71, X15 and B70

Part of the "Early Years" exhibit

Airframe without canvas in the "Early Years" exhibit

B2 tailless bomber

ICBMs and MIRV in the foreground

Space Shuttle, etc.

SR71 "Blackbird"

Part of the "Early Years" Gallery

A part of the outdoor  Memorial

......This trek is over, currently planning our next to our Michigan "Lily Pad" 

Original material:  https://roadtrek210.blogspot.com/

Continuing our winter trek - April 2018

The next leg of our winter trek is 1,774 miles. We'll be spending some time in the Florida Panhandle. Our ultimate destination for this trek: the Florida Keys.

After reaching the panhandle we'll have another 600 miles to go to get into our final destination for this leg in the Florida Keys. This map only gets us about  75% of the way.

The 210P has been mechanically checked by the local Chevy dealer, and after changing the engine oil (synthetic) they gave us the "thumbs up".  I changed the Onan generator oil as usual within one year whether the hour meter indicates it is necessary or not.

I had the 210P cleaned and polished and we have begun packing.

Arizona to the Florida Panhandle, via I-10

Original material:  https://roadtrek210.blogspot.com/

Inverter Always "ON" - Faulty Inverter Switch

A couple of days ago I went into the Roadtrek to see how the coach batteries were holding up. We are preparing for our next trek of about 1900 miles. I was surprised to discover that the coach batteries were below 12.9V, or less than 100% charged. That is not normal. So what was going on? I discovered an interesting situation. The Inverter switch was "OFF" and yet the inverter was actually "ON" and providing 120VAC to the receptacles.

I was surprised because the battery disconnect also was "OFF". Obviously, the battery disconnect does not disconnect the inverter, which seems odd. Even John Slaughter's 2012 "Roadtrek Electrical Simulator" indicates that the inverter is disabled by the battery disconnect.

Normally the inverter only provides 120AC power if the inverter switch is "ON", as depicted in this photo. In my 210P the position of the battery disconnect is irrelevant; it is only the position of the inverter switch that matters.

Here is a normal situation. Inverter switch "ON" and battery disconnect "ON":

Condition of the Tripp-lite when the "Inverter" switch above is in the "ON" position and the Tripp-lite slide switch is in the "Auto/Remote" position. Vehicle is not on shore power:

The illuminated left "Green" LED indicates the coach batteries are at 91-100% "charge level".
 The illuminated right "Yellow" LED indicates that the Tripp-lite is providing inverter power.

When the Roadtrek is not on shore power and the inverter switch is in the "OFF"position the following photo indicates the normal LED indication at the Tripp-lite. The coach batteries are not being charged and the inverter is not providing AC power. All LEDs are off:

All LEDs "OFF" indicating not on shore power and inverter is not providing power to the coach

Inverter Switch Malfunction?
Here's an abnormal situation which I discovered in my coach. The battery disconnect is "OFF" and the inverter switch is in the "OFF" position and yet that illuminated yellow LED on the Tripp-Lite indicates that the inverter is providing 120VAC power. I verified that yes, there is 120VAC at the designated receptacles. How can this be?

Inverter switch in the "OFF" position - the inverter should be off.

Inverter providing power even though the inverter switch is "OFF" - How can this be?

The above is what I discovered in my Roadtrek 210P. I thought about this and concluded that

• The battery disconnect does not disconnect DC to the inverter.
• I had a faulty INVERTER switch on the Roadtrek control panel. This switch has worked properly in the past, but I haven't used the inverter for a few weeks.

What to do?
I checked the blue plug-in connector at the Tripp-Lite to make sure it was seated. I then disconnected and re-connected it a few times to wipe the contacts. (It looks like a CAT5 ethernet connector, but this isn't an ethernet communications circuit). I concluded that the Roadtrek inverter switch might be the culprit and because it hasn't been thrown in a while it might have oxidized contacts. The Tripp-lite remote inverter selection operates on a DC voltage. Switch contact oxidation creates a resistance which could interfere with the operation of a low voltage DC circuit.

I threw the switch "off" and then "on" about a dozen times to allow the normal "wiping action" of the switch to remove any oxidation, and then returned the switch in the "OFF" position. I checked the inverter and it was off. Since then the remote switch has operated correctly, and when it is in the "OFF" position the Tripp-lite is not providing inverter AC power.

Of course, there could also be a mechanical problem with this switch, and I'll be monitoring it. Not that difficult to do as all I have to do is look at the Tripp-lite LEDs, which are readily accessible if the bed is in the upright "couch" position.

Important note:  In my 210P the inverter operates independently of the Battery Disconnect. In other words, if the Battery disconnect is "OFF", the blue lite is not illuminated.

While the battery disconnect is "OFF" if the Inverter switch is then turned "ON" the inverter will begin providing AC power to the receptacles it is connected to.  In other words, the position of the battery disconnect has no bearing upon the operation of the inverter in my 210P. Here is the photo I took and I did confirm that the inverter is ON.

Inverter switch ON, battery disconnect OFF and the inverter is providing AC power

Original material:  https://roadtrek210.blogspot.com/

Lithium Battery and RV DC Power System Developments

Watt "Imperium" (tm) Fuel Cell Propane Consumption

September 10, 2021.  Because Roadtrek took down the Watt video, I added a link to the website.
October 10, 2018. Added Roadtrek video on the Watt propane generator

Originally Posted March 20, 2018


Class B RV battery systems continue to evolve. Recently Winnebago announced a new version of the Travato with high voltage lithium-ion (LiB) coach batteries. This sparked some conjecture and interest on social media. WGO is joining Roadtrek and Advanced RV in providing Li-ion battery systems in Class B's. Coachmen has an announced Li-ion system for their Galleria. Not all Class B manufacturer's are on board and some of the new systems may not achieve long term expectations. There is reason for buyers to be cautious with these higher power, somewhat expensive and technically sophisticated systems.  Nevertheless, there is a trend to larger battery powered systems in Class B coaches.

This post builds upon my recent ones about solar, AGM batteries, Li-ion batteries (LiBs) and charging systems.  See the "Important Notes" at the end of this post.

The Only Constant is "Change"
Lithium-ion batteries (LiBs) are a "work in progress" and there are a number of changes coming which may further improve these systems. LiBs will be getting more powerful, and soon.

This post focuses on some of the things that are going on, will be here soon, some of the approaches, some issues and provides some comparisons.  Expanded and larger battery systems may be a necessity if RV manufacturers replace propane fueled devices including refrigerators, hot water heaters, furnaces and range tops with DC electrics. The total available portable energy in these coaches may not be changing, but is shifting to electricity as the primary power source.

Because these are expensive systems, I suspect some buyers will overspend, getting features (power ratings) they don't need or seldom use. Components such as inverters and converters may only have 3-year warranties, or less. It will be up to the RV manufacturers to decide how much warranty they are willing to provide for these systems and owners will have to decide how much financial risk they are willing to take. See the "System Comparison Caveats" at the end of this post for important information about ratings, etc.

However, the core information is very positive for these systems. It seems there is continuing divergence as different technologies appear and each has inherent advantages and disadvantages. For my personal use I will be comparing this to alternatives, including standard AGMs and carbon foam battery technology. A lot of that data has been put into earlier posts. "This really isn't rocket science" although these are systems of varying complexities. Manufacturers and tekkies may use jargon and other terms which can confuse the casual reader. I'm sure I'm guilty of that, too. There are also "apples to oranges" comparisons about systems and ratings. These can confuse, particularly when statements rely upon presenting the "best" case.

I assume you are a casual, but interested, reader and this may be helpful to you.   I've spent a lot of time in advanced technology systems for industrial applications and after years "on the leading edge" and some experience "on the bleeding edge"  I am cautious and I have no interest in being an early adopter, and I will avoid certain types of experiments with my Class B. However, there are others who are far more adventurous than I am.

Meanwhile, for an alternative reality using Propane Fuel Cells

Hymer Group (Roadtrek) announced a propane fuel cell. The Roadtek video has since been taken down.  I am replacing it with a link to the manufacturer's website (Sept. 10, 2021).  "WATT Imperium’s™ quiet, always-working operation is about as loud as a ceiling fan or normal background conversation (45 dB at 3ft.), and won’t cause interruptions or distractions. You can now replace cumbersome and noisy conventional gas generators that emit toxic exhaust fumes with Imperium’s™ state-of-the-art compact, quiet and clean power generator":

https://www.wattfuelcell.com/portable-power/watt-imperium/

Here is the original press announcement by Hymer:
"CAMBRIDGE, Ontario, March 6, 2018 /PRNewswire/ -- Erwin Hymer Group North America, Inc. has signed an exclusive supply and engineering cooperative agreement with WATT Fuel Cell Corporation located in Mount Pleasant, Pennsylvania, to introduce the WATT Fuel Cell technology into the RV market........The integration of the WATT Imperium™ Fuel Cell allows the use of propane to create clean electricity and heat, and allows Erwin Hymer Group North America, Inc. to affordably put in place a method of creating clean electricity."

October 10, 2018: 

"One of the leading manufacturers of class B motorhomes in North America, EHGNA placed their first order with WATT after a successful pilot of the Imperium on board their E-Trek autonomous recreational vehicle earlier this year. The Imperium will provide clean power on demand, allowing EHGNA customers to automatically create, access and manage power for all their on-board appliances and devices wherever their adventures take them.........Manufactured at WATT’s facility in Southwestern Pennsylvania, the Imperium is a hybrid SOFC power management system that creates small-scale power, 500W to 1.5kW, from readily available and easily accessible fuels and manages renewable energy sources. The Imperium SOFC system delivered to EHGNA will utilize the hybrid power manager to integrate the fuel cell with solar generation while optimizing on-board energy storage. It will create power efficiently and quietly from propane and solar energy with little to no engine noise or harmful exhaust."

https://www.wattfuelcell.com/news/imperium-shipments-erwin-hymer-group/

Improved Li-ion batteries (LiBs) are Coming. 
Tesla has begun using improved Lithium batteries in the Model S electric car. These batteries reportedly extend range by 6%.  How was this accomplished? By changing the battery construction to include silicon anodes. That change, which sounds simple but in fact is not, allows more lithium in the batteries and that increases power capacity. Graphite (crystalline carbon)  does not meet the high energy demands of electric vehicles.

It has been predicted that within two or three years manufacturer's will be shifting to this more powerful silicon anode battery construction.  Experts suggest that we'll be seeing improvement in the range of 10 to 15%.  This approach may soon provide some batteries capable of 10 to 30% more power. These improved LiBs will be used in applications ranging from smart phones to laptops to electric vehicles. It remains to be seen if these technologies will make it to Class B RVs at an affordable price.

A few years more distant there are even better batteries. These will have primarily silicon anodes which will have the possibility of improving energy storage by up to 40% over todays Lithium-Ion batteries.

However, it might  be best to keep in mind the actual numbers which Tesla Motors has achieved with silicon in the anodes. There is a huge difference between a 40% potential improvement and a realized 6% improvement.

There are serious hurdles to be overcome to get above the 15% improvement, so don't hold your breath. A few companies involved in this include Angstron Materials, Enovix, Enevate, MilliporeSigma, Panasonic and Sila Nanotechnologies.

Larger Batteries
RV manufacturers are now providing larger capacity battery systems, even in smaller RVs, such as Class Bs.  These use existing LiB battery technology. Not long ago Class B's came with 2.4kW (220Ah AGM batteries) or less, and this can be compared to the LiB technology offerings, which generally provide two times the battery power, and upwards.  Here are a few of the recent battery packs based upon LiB technology in Class Bs. Note that specifications are published by RV manufacturers and are subject to change, as is the information they provide:

• Roadtrek: Ecotrek 400, 400Ah or about 4.8kW (and upwards beyond 800Ah).
• Winnebago Travato,  725Ah or about 8.7kW at about 50V.
• Coachmen Li3, 600Ah or about 7.2kW
• Advanced RV, 400 to 800 Amp hours at 12V (4.8kW to  9.6kW).

Charging Issues and Requirements
Those larger batteries need a lot of power to recharge them. This has led to larger underhood generators and larger shore power chargers. Using solar to recharge those batteries? Consider that in a typical day we might only get about 8 hours of bright sunlight at an angle to the solar panels sufficient to provide maximum charging.  Solar is limited because of daylight hours and rooftop space. 400W of rooftop solar provides only about 33A at peak charging amperes. A 200W solar array provides half that. Consider that a 100W solar array provides 0.1kW of power. That's useful for augmenting or reducing dependence upon batteries, but with 4.8kW and larger battery systems, that 0.1kW solar is going to be a trickle battery charger.

The problem can be exemplified by the Tesla Model S electric automobile, which is normally charged on a high ampere 240V AC circuit. However it can be charged on a 120V circuit. Such a circuit limits charging amperes to 15-20  (about 2.4kw max charging power drawn from "shore power").

How far can a Model S go after an all night charge at such reduced charging?

• Answer: about 30 miles after an overnight charge at 120V! Yet, the Model S has a normal  battery range of 249-315 miles. (According to Tesla the 60-kwh battery provides a range of up to 232 miles (the EPA pegs it at 208 miles), and the 85-kwh battery (a $10,000 option) provides up to 300 miles (the EPA puts it at 265 miles).
• It would seem that the best the Tesla can do on a 120V circuit overnight is to get about 6-8kW of charge. 

The problem now being faced by RVers is similar to the above. How to get enough power to "quickly" charge those large coach batteries, and from where?

Here are a few typical choices available as coach battery power recharge sources:

1. 120VAC "shore power" circuit with standard 12V charger: 45A = 540W (e.g. Tripp-lite).
2. 120VAC "shore power" circuit with high capacity charger: Up to 30A at 120VAC = 3600W (Volta).
3. Onan gasoline/propane 120V generator: powers "shore power" charger, above. 
4. Underhood 12V generator (e.g. Roadtrek GU):  300A max. at fast idle = 3600W.
5. Solar: e.g. 200W panel about 17A = 200W.

Note: There are conditions for each of the above. Here are a few:

1. For the underhood generator the engine must be at a fast idle to provide sufficient power from the alternator. That will use about 0.6gph of fuel according to some sources.  That's more than a gasoline generator, but what vehicle engine RPMs are required to provide those quoted "peak" alternator charging rates? However, underhood generators can provide more DC power at peak alternator speeds.. 
2. The Onan gasoline generator (2.8kW) in my 210P can provide a maximum 23.6A at 120V. If charging batteries at maximum using the Tripp-Lite, the other AC consumption in the coach must be limited to 13.6A or less (about  1.6kW). Generator power output decreases above 1,500 ft elevation and temperatures above 85F. "Typical" gasoline consumption at full load: 0.43gph; at half load: 0.3 gph.
3. Solar charging is determined by the size of the panels in watts as well as the type of charge controller. MPPT type will outperform PWM type. Temperature and amount of sunlight also determines how much energy can be "harvested" from the sunlight striking the panel(s). 200W is probably the maximum roof real estate that can be provided for solar panels on a Class B, but there will always be exceptions. Rooftop solar has one large limitation for those parking and charging; the RV must be in full sun to get full benefit. That sometimes turns the metal can into an oven. Using portable solar panels may overcome this, but they might have a tendency to "walk."
4. A Tripp-Lite "Powerverter" inverter-charger includes "load sharing" settings, to limit the charging current when running off of an AC circuit. If not used, AC input of 10A or 1200W may occur for charging batteries at 45A.  This is the device in my Roadtrek 210P. 
5. LiBs can charge faster than AGM batteries. However, charge times are determined not only by battery chemistry but also by charging power available. 

The Problem in a Nutshell
From the above, the problem facing RV manufacturers for their large, LiB systems can be summarized simply:

• It takes a lot of power to quickly recharge those large battery packs!
• Solar, small underhood generators, and other charging systems may be inadequate to fully charge the batteries in the time available. 
• Going to higher battery voltages requires DC/DC converters and to get fast "shore power" charging will require larger "shore powered" chargers. 
• As power requirements of RVers increase, so does the need for larger inverters to change that DC power into 120VAC.
• All of the above equipment adds weight. So there are trade-offs. 

Inverters, 100% Electric Coaches and Load Shedding
Inverters are required to change battery voltage to 120 VAC power. These have peak efficiencies of about 90%, but as AC loads decrease so does the efficiency of the inverter, which can be as low as 50% at light loads. In other words, 250W in and only 125W output power This can create a dilemma. To get maximum use of the batteries requires running inverters at higher efficiencies.  To do so means using more battery power, and using more power requires larger batteries. Eventually we reach a point where the battery systems are approaching the ability to replace that 30A shore power, at least for a few hours a day.

Manufacturers are moving away from propane/electric coaches. This may be for economic reasons and it may also be a result of those larger coach batteries. An example is replacing absorptive refrigerators with compressor refrigerators. Some compressor refrigerators operate on 12VDC (or 24VDC) and require a 15A dedicated circuit (180W maximum).

If 12V DC refrigerators are used on 12V battery systems, then there are no converter losses. If 12V DC refrigerators are used on 48VDC battery systems there will be converter losses. If 120V compressor refrigerators are used, then there are inverter losses.

"There is no free ride."  LiB battery prices can be $2,000 per 2.4kW.   As RV manufacturers embrace "all electric" approaches, the battery requirements increase.

My personal trekking experience a few years ago in an "100% electric, solar powered" Class B RV gave me some insights and I do have some concerns about recent trends. There is a movement away from multi-fuel systems such as propane/electric to all electric coaches. This places larger demands on the electrical power systems of the coach. However, most battery power systems are not up to full replacement of shore power on a continuous basis. That would require battery systems capable of providing up to 3.6kW continuous electrical energy, ignoring inefficiencies of any inverters or converters.

There are methods in use on some larger RVs to control peak power consumption. These are "load shedding" systems which monitor the coach power demands and automatically turn off features based upon priorities so as not to trip circuit breakers, overload inverters, converters, etc.

For example, in an all electric coach there may be a resistance heater stove top, a microwave/convection oven, a coffee pot, a compressor refrigerator, an electric hot water heater and environmental heat and air conditioning. Vehicle engine heat may be used to augment heating/hot water.

Only the larger battery systems can power all of these, which may even overpower the 30A shore power capabilities of a Class B if an attempt is made to use hot water, air conditioning and do cooking at the same time.

It is relatively easy to automatically turn off, or "shed" some of these loads on a priority basis. For example when using the electric range, other appliances may be prevented from powering up. However, I don't see Class B manufacturers doing this. It is also easy to manually turn off certain features, if the coach is so equipped. Using circuit breakers to manually shed loads is not a good approach. Circuit breakers are not intended to be used as "off-on" switches.

Higher Voltage DC Systems:

There is some interest in higher voltage DC battery systems. The moving force for these has been electric vehicles and marine applications. Some Class B RVs offer batteries and underhood generators at higher voltages.  Typically 24 or 48VDC (peak 58VDC). An example is the Volta System, which is the basis for the Winnebago Travato Li-Ion battery system. 

The higher voltage systems may use a variety of chemistries and LiB construction. Lithium Iron Phosphate(LiFePO4) is most common in 12VDC LiB systems. The higher voltage systems depart from this.

Higher voltage battery packs in electric vehicles may use Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (LiNiMnCoO2) which is also called "NMC" or they may use Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide (LiNiCoAlO2) also called "NCA".

LiFePO4 is generally used in 12-24V systems. "NMC" seems to be more preferred in the higher voltage systems such as 48VDC. There are differences between each of these battery systems which yield different power per unit weight. In other words, some battery packs are lighter than others, even with the same power ratings. The weight and power density varies with the technology used.

Are Higher DC Voltages Better?
I have seen some apparent confusion about the lower versus higher voltages. The bottom line is straightforward with comparison of the copper conductors and the alternators.  As we move into alternative battery chemistries, the density (power per unit volume and the weight) also changes.  Keep in mind that higher voltage DC systems do require a "converter" to get 12VDC from the 48V alternator and batteries. That 12VDC is required for standard RV DC power systems.

Be aware that every time we change voltages, there are losses, or "inefficiencies".  These inefficiencies are inherent in the power conversion, and they usually show up as waste heat. Wonderful in the winter, but unwelcome in the summer. Those converters  probably lose upwards of about 10% of the battery power put into them.

When considering efficiencies, we need to consider the weight of batteries and the weight of alternators and wiring, but also the weight of inverter/chargers and converters (e.g. 48V to 12V DC).  Stationary weight is not a consideration, but increasing accessory weight does displace other things we can carry within the chassis weight limits.

Another term sometimes used for this is "overhead." Whatever term we choose to use, not all of that battery power may get to the appliance, and there are weight differences, which lower the vehicle MPG and may limit the useful carrying weight of the vehicle.

How much inefficiency is there? It is reasonable to use 10% as the minimum inefficiency of a converter. In practical terms, that means that a 7.0kW high voltage battery system will only provide 6.3kW of useable 12VDC power, or less.  Of course inverters which change DC battery power to 120VAC power also have inefficiencies.

One advantage of a 48V alternator is size and weight. Such an "underhood generator" will be smaller and lighter than a 12V alternator providing the identical power. The 48V generator will also require smaller conductors (wires) to convey its power to the batteries. However, the trade-off is the weight of the converter required to change that higher voltage to 12VDC. Volta's Z5104200-0121250 converter weighs 42 pounds and provides 1500 continuous watts of 12VDC.

Of course, under hood generators are less weight than a gasoline generator. An Onan "microlite" 2.8kW generator weighs 113 pounds.

The 12VDC demands may decrease as RV manufacturers juggle and size the voltages of appliances and power requirements. This may allow smaller, lighter and less powerful converters. Transferring requirements from 12VDC to 120VAC will increase the inverter size and weight. Volta's weighs 68 lbs and can provide 3000 watts of continuous 120VAC power.  It can functionally replace the 30A "shore power" connection for as long as there is sufficient battery power available.

Underhood Generators (Alternators)
Here's a comparison of the power ratings of several underhood generators. These alternators require a minimum RPMs to provide usable power. That means that the vehicle engine must run at a "fast idle" and higher to provide sufficient power.  Alternators generally put out low amperes at normal idle (actual output is determined by the speed of the alternator, and increases dramatically once we get above fast idle).  Very low quoted charging times may require highway speeds to get the underhood generator to peak power:

• Roadtrek GU: 300A at 12VDC, rated 3,600W (3.6kW) at ?? RPM. 
• Volta 120FTAN-58:  160A at 48V, rated 6,000 W (6.0kW) at 4,000 alternator RPM.
• Volta 160GM92V-58: 120A at 48V,  rated 8,000 W (8.0kW) at 7,500 alternator RPM.

Projected Lifespan, Warranties and Opportunity Costs 
There are a variety of figures published about the lifespan of these battery systems. Some say 10 years, with the ability to provide 80% of the published power over that period of time. Ultimately, the only thing one can count upon is the RV builders warranty. Equipment manufacturers may only provide 1-3 years. This makes the RV builder's warranty very important.

Justification of these high power battery systems requires long lifespans. For example, the "opportunity cost" of a $10,000 system which operates reliably and provides at least 80% of published power will be:

• $1,000 per year if the system provides 10 years of service.
• $2,000 per year if the system provides 5 years of service. 

System Comparison Caveats

The weight and capabilities of these systems varies considerably. In general, here are some things to keep in mind:

1. LiB batteries weigh substantially less than AGM equivalents. Comparing 12VDC battery packs, for example: 200A Roadtrek "Ecotrek" modules weigh about 80 lbs. 200A AGM batteries weigh about 126 lbs. This gives LiBs a weight advantage if we consider only the batteries.
2. To compare these different systems, we should consider the useable kW. However, "useable" makes some assumptions, and manufacturer's use this in their published data.  For maximum lifespan, LiBs should probably not be discharged below 80%, but this does vary with battery chemistry and there are some differences of opinion. For maximum lifespan, AGMs should not be discharged below 50%. However, alternative AGM technology reputedly allows discharge to 80%.  Comparing discharge cycles a 2.4kW LiB battery can provide about 1.9kW while an 2.4 kW AGM can provide  about 1.2kW. Alternative Carbon AGM technology batteries rated 2.4kW can reputedly provide 1.9kW.
3. Losses and inefficiencies are important, too. A 12VDC battery system powering a 12VDC appliance has zero "conversion" losses. A high voltage battery system using a converter will have about 10% conversion loss. In other words, the available 2.4kW of such a system will decrease to 2.16kW useable for appliances. 
4. Inverters which change battery DC to 120VAC also have inefficiencies. We never get 100% of that DC power to the AC appliances. At lighter loads, inverter efficiency is less and as the load on the inverter increases, the efficiency improves. Generally, inverter manufacturers will state "maximum" efficiency, which occurs at higher AC loads. So, for example, a 2.4kw battery with a highly loaded, 90% efficient inverter can only provide about 2.16kW of AC power; of course at those loads we can quickly draw down batteries. But at lighter loads the actual efficiency may fall to 50%, In other words, half of the battery power may be lost when changing DC to AC with lighter loads. So at lighter loads, we get longer battery availability, but the actual kW available will be less than that at the higher efficiencies. Confusing, isn't it? 
5. Efficiencies can be difficult to figure out in the "real world" using batteries to power DC appliances and 120VAC appliances, with varying loads and if augmented by solar, with varying sunlight. Which is why there are statements made all over the map. We do make assumptions when specifications are stated (even engine rpm changes the battery charge time using that underhood generator). So it is not surprising to me that it is difficult to come to some idea of what we can actually achieve with these different systems. 
6. When comparing systems, it is necessary to compare battery costs. By comparing the cost of equivalent kWs of batteries, LiBs win. Comparing usable kW costs and disregarding battery lifespans, the differences change significantly.  Here's a post which provides a comparison:   A comparison of AGM batteries to Lithium-ion
7. Manufacturers may be inclined to stretch the projected life spans, abilities and so on, as well as to make other statements to justify the costs to buyers.  
8. To determine the weight of a system requires adding the weight of all of the following:

• Generator
• Batteries
• Inverter/Charger
• Converter
• Solar Panel
• Solar Controller
• Wiring
• Mounting Hardware

Volts, Amperes and Wiring (Conductors)
In higher voltage battery systems the conductors required to carry power will also be smaller than they would be in a 12V system providing the identical power (kW).. The actual size of the conductors will be determined by the current (amperes) they are required to carry as well as the allowable voltage drop.

All wires have resistance. That creates "voltage drop" which is wasted power and it is dissipated as heat. Voltage drop reduces the DC voltage available to the appliances, etc. on the circuit. Here's an example in which we want the voltage drop not to exceed 3%. In a 12VDC circuit, a 3% drop means that with a battery voltage of 12.0 we'll see 11.64V at the end of the wire when carrying the rated amperes :

• For a 30A circuit, we would use a #10AWGwire for a circuit up to 10 ft. in length.
• For a 30A circuit with lengths of 15 ft. we would use a #8AWG conductor.
• At 20 ft. we'd go to #6AWG.  
• etc.

Note: The smaller the AWG number the larger in diameter and current carrying capacity is the conductor. AWG = American Wire Gauge.

So what do we gain with higher DC voltages? To use those higher power alternators (underhood generators) requires either larger conductors or increasing the voltage. The significance is this:

• At 12V a 30A circuit carries 360 watts.
• At 48V the same 30A circuit carries 1,440 watts (four times more "power" than the 12V circuit). 

Ultimately it is the power that matters, not the voltage or the amperes.

• DC power (watts) = volts x amperes. 

Important Notes:

1. All trademarks, etc. belong to the respective equipment and RV manufacturers.
2. Information presented here is from the equipment manufacturer's and RV manufacturer's published sources. No effort has been made to certify the validity or accuracy of that information. 
3. All information is "subject to change" by the respective manufacturers.
4. This post is Copyright (c) 2018 Norman Retzke "All Rights Reserved"
5. I don't work for any RV or battery manufacturer, nor am I compensated in any way by them. These posts are  provided with the intention to provide factual and useful information. Nevertheless, they are my personal opinion.
6. I have no inherent preference for any of the LiB systems in this post. At the time of this writing I am trekking in a Class B which is equipped with an Onan gasoline generator, 220AH AGM batteries and an inverter/charger. I added a supplemental solar panel to assist in charging the coach batteries when I am parked off the grid. 
7.  It has been reported that global lithium-ion battery revenue is expected to expand to $53.7 billion in 2020, up from $11.8 billion in 2010.
8. Tech Note: Silicon (Si) has attracted substantial attention as an improved LiB battery material because of "its specific capacity of 4,200 mAhg-1, volume capacity of 9,786 mAh cm-3,  relatively low working potential (0.5 V vs. Li/Li+), the abundance of the element Si and the environmental benignity of Si."

Original material:  https://roadtrek210.blogspot.com/