Roadtrek Propane Tank - Improper Fill Procedures

 

Level indicator on Propane Tank - 87% indicated - is it overfilled?
 How would we know?
 Is that important?

 

Proper and improper filling of the Roadtrek propane tank

There are correct, proper fill procedures for propane tanks. And then, there are improper fill procedures. Improper filling, i.e. "overfilling" can result in a dangerous situation. By comparison, underfilling is merely an inconvenience. This post is about how to fill the onboard Roadtrek propane tank to the proper level.  It is also about that mechanical dial indicator on the propane tank, and the remote LED LPG indicator inside the Roadtrek.  Not all Roadtreks have a remote LED indicator. This is not a "do-it-yourself" post. This is about education and awareness for owners. Only those trained and certified should handle propane.  Sadly, not all attendants are competent to do so and I am writing from experience.  However, I have never had my propane tank overfilled. Attendants have underfilled the tank. I monitor all filling procedures. 

Improper fill procedures can result in a dangerous situation. Propane tanks should never be filled more than 80%. The indicator in the photo above implies that the propane tank is more than 80% full.  If this is so, it is a dangerous situation.  However, the indicator is not there to be used by the attendant to fill the tank. The indicator and a remote LED dot display are for the Roadtrek owner to provide general information about the amount of propane in the tank. It is possible that the mechanical indicator in the photo above is in error. 

This post provides information about the proper procedure to avoid overfilling the propane tank.  It is an informational post and is not a training aid or tutorial.  If one knows the tank has been properly filled that instills confidence. If one knows that the proper procedures have been followed then one also knows what the number on that mechanical dial indicator is representing when the tank has been properly filled to 80% level, and not more or less. 

Underfilled tanks is another improper procedure, but when that occurs it may be inconvenient and it may mean that  you will run out of propane earlier than expected. That too is undesirable, particularly if cold weather RVing. 

Why is more than 80% dangerous?

Why are propane tanks only filled to 80%? Propane in the tank is liquid, and that liquid expands as the tank temperature increases. Above the liquid in the tank is gaseous propane. Propane in a gaseous state is what is burned. The various burners in the Roadtrek appliances are designed for gaseous propane. If liquid propane gets into the piping of the Roadtrek it may get to the burner for the 3-way refrigerator, the furnace or the rangetop as a liquid. Liquid propane will expand rapidly when exposed to air pressure at the burners and it may burn violently. 

The 80% fill point is a cushion to assure that only gaseous propane gets into the propane lines to your appliances. 

There are ample warnings about this in the various Roadtrek manuals. If you don't have one, they are available at the official Roadtrek.com website. 

How does an attendant determine when to shut off the propane when filling the tank?

Obviously, it is important not to overfill the propane tank.  How does an attendant know when to stop filling the tank?

He/she/it does not or should not use the mechanical dial indicator. These indicators are unreliable.  The tank is equipped with a more reliable device. 

The propane tank is equipped with an "outage" valve. This is a small valve mounted on the tank at the 80% full level. It is to be used by the attendant when filling the tank.

Here's a diagram showing the location of an "outage" or bleed valve on a Manchester Tank Co. propane tank, similar to the one in my Roadtrek 210P: 

When an attendant is filling the tank, he/she/it should open the outage valve. It will hiss as the tank is filling with propane, as some gaseous propane escapes. When the liquid propane reaches the level of the outage valve it will "sputter" and some liquid propane will be discharged. This indicates the tank is full to the 80% level.

At this point the attendant should cease filling and close the outage valve. 

Outage valve on the propane tank of my 2013 210P Roadtrek
The outage valve on your Roadtrek may be different

When he/she/it has removed the propane fill valve, you can check the level on the tank indicator. For newer Roadtreks this sensor not only provides local indication, it also transmits this information to the LED display inside your Roadtrek. Here's the tank level gauge in my 2013 210P:

Propane level indicator with wiring for remote indicator
About 30% level indicated

2013 210P "LPG" Propane remote level indicator
LEDs indicate somewhere between 2/3 and 100% level

How to read the mechanical indicator? Is it reliable?

In the photos above you will see the dial indicators on two different propane tanks. They both have a mechanical pointer and one has electrical wiring for a remote indication.  But are they accurate?  That is, do they accurately represent the level of propane in the tank? Most importantly, when the tank is properly filled to 80% what level do they display?

In fact these indicators may not be accurate. It is possible to establish two points for the indicator. One is the display when the tank is at the 80% level and the other is the 0% level. If we have an attendant fill the propane tank to the 80% level using the proper procedure, we can then observe the displayed level on the tank indicator. If it shows "F - 80%" or "Full" that's great. We can also monitor that on the remote LED display on the Roadtrek panel.  If the mechanical display does not show "F" but displays some other value, i.e. "70%" we can mark that in the Roadtrek manual we carry with us as the actual "full" point, in other words, in this circumstance when 70% is displayed the tank level is actually 80%. Similarly, we can check the remote LED indicator inside the Roadtrek if so equipped to see what it displays.

Frankly, there may be inconsistencies.  However, my concern when trekking is 1) I want to avoid unsafe situations and 2) I don't want to run out of propane for hot water. The only energy source for hot water in my 210P is propane. I have electric options for everything else. I use the LED indicator as an "approximation" for the propane tank level.  

Propane Safety Label on my 2013 210P:

Original Material: Roadtrek210P.blogspot.com (c) 2021

Roadtrek Propane Tank and Bleed Valve

 

Tank Rust - February 3, 2017

Preventative maintenance of the Propane Tank

In 2016 I slid under the Roadtrek and did an underside inspection,  I noticed some dings in the propane tanks, flaking of the enamel and some rust. When at the Southwestern Lily Pad  I cleaned the tank exterior, wire brushed the rusty areas and then brushed on a coat of Rust-Oleum white enamel.  The location of the tank is such that it can be struck by rocks and stuff kicked up while driving.

The paint stopped the rust and based upon a recent visual inspection it is in good condition, 5 years later.

Note: It is my understanding that the tank on my Roadtrek is double-walled. I've been a member of the FMCA Roadtrek International Chapter since 2013/2014 and a recent discussion about propane tanks included this comment by a member: “I toured the Roadtrek plant in Kitchener, Ontario a year ago last October. Our plant guide said the propane tank is double lined and any deterioration to the outside is cosmetic and the tank itself should never have to be replaced. "  I can't say that is accurate. Nevertheless, I think preventative maintenance of the exterior is worth it.

I recommend the Roadtrek Chapter and it purports to be "about one of the TOP THREE FMCA Chapters in membership."

Specifications, my 210P:

Roadtrek propane tank size: 10 gallons. 

Weight of 1 gallon of propane: 4.2 pounds

My tank 80% full = 33.6 pounds of propane.

For reference: a small "green" disposable bottle holds 1 pound of propane. 

Photos of Roadtrek tank, before and after cleaning and painting:

Cleaned and wire-brushed

After painting with Rust-Oleum white enamel

Condition of the propane tank -  July 26, 2021

Propane Tank Outage "Bleed" Valve

Some of the Roadtrek manuals include a propane system diagram and a diagram of the propane tank. The tank diagram identifies the location of the fill, shutoff, outage valve and tank level gauge.  If you don't have a manual go to the official Roadtrek website and download one.  They are in pdf format.  Hint: Roadtrek made substantial improvements to later manuals.  Check them on the website and you may find a lot of useful information. Roadtrek website:

Roadtrek owners manuals

Here's a diagram of an RV style tank made by Manchester Tank Co. It is marked to show the "outage valve".  Next is a photo of one style of outage valve made by Manchester tank, and the third is a photo of the tank on my 2013 210P. This was taken with the rear access cover removed.  The arrow points to the "outage" valve. This valve is to be opened by the attendant when filling the tank.  When the tank level reaches 80% liquid will come out of the hole in the center, signifying a full tank.  In my experience, not all attendants do this and so at times the tank is not properly filled.  Usually the tank is underfilled because the attendant shuts off the propane fill at an arbitrary number of gallons.  I prefer to avoid gas stations because the attendants have been trained to fill propane bottles, and are not familiar with on-board propane tanks:

Manchester Tank Co - Illustration of propane tank showing location of outage valve
This is not a Roadtrek propane tank! 

One style of "Outage" or "Bleed Valve" -  Manchester Tank Co .

2013 Roadtrek 210P Propane Tank Bleed Valve - also called an "outage" valve

Main Propane Tank Valve & Components:

1 = Coach Propane Shutoff Valve

2 = Propane Fill Connection

3 = "Outage" valve

4 = Propane fill indicator and sensor for remote indication

Note: I removed the BBQ 10 PSI regulator & hose on my 210P.

Safety Labels on Propane Cover:

Roadtrek had specific safety guidelines.  This is the label on my 2013 210P:

Original Material: Roadtrek210.blogspot.com (c) 2021

Walking up the Dune at Warren State Park

 

Walking toward the dunes at Warren Dunes State Park - 9:30am

Last night we had a steady, heavy rain for a couple of  hours.  With breezes from the southwest we knew the smoke, soot and haze from the western fires including those in Manitoba CA would be blown out of the area.  Furthermore, the rain packs the sand, making the uphill walk easier. So, the next morning after a light breakfast we took a walk and climbed the largest dune near the beach. The walk into the park and up and down is a couple of miles in total. Sometimes we bicycle, but with the summer peak on a weekend, walking off the road is much safer. Not everyone observes the 20 MPH speed limit, nor does everyone drive expecting to encounter a slower moving bicycle on the curves that lead to the beach.  

Here's an aerial view of the Warren Dunes State Park, MI.  Courtesy of Bing Maps. The ellipse is the area we were walking in this morning:

Warren Dunes State Park - Source: Bing Maps - area in the photos

We always walk with shoes, or hiking boots. We've encountered rusty cans buried in the sand, bottle tops and of course, there is a lot of wood from long dead trees.  On this walk, we encountered a couple of barefoot teenagers on the dune.  One complained of a cut "from a piece of wood".  She was able to walk down and deal with it at the bottom.  We also carry water. Hydration is important.  It is surprising how many we encounter with no water.  Taking care of the children - NOT!

G zig-zagging up the dune

It is smart to zig-zag to the top to control the heart rate. I push a bit more than G, so I tend to go straight up, if conditions permit. Hard packed sand is easier to walk on, too. Our goal is to enjoy our companionship, get a nice workout, enjoy the breezes and views, avoid the crowd and have a good time.  On some trails there are switch-backs. On the dunes we create our own to the top and hike within our comfortable limits. 

Rain stippled and compacted sand - easier walking uphill

G nears the top, I'm facing south

Steep approach to the top

Looking back as I near the top - more level walking

Some shade near the top - 9:46am

G takes a break and enjoys the view

A pleasant view from the top

One of the rewards of this hike is the wonderful, cool breezes which are generally off of Lake Michigan.  The water temperature near shore is somewhere between 65F and 70F on any given day. That is a cooling influence. Another reward is the view in all directions.  At the top, there is even some shade. 

Near the crest of the dune, it levels and walking becomes easier

After enjoying the view and the breezes, we walk down and

Beach at 10:15am

toss skipping stones into the lake. The beach people are arriving in a steady stream.

It will be a fun filled crowd today, which is our cue to leave. So we hike out of the park and return to our site.

Original Material: Roadtrek210.blogspot.com

Grilling - Corn on the Cob and Baked Potatoes - Grill Comparison

 

Corn cleaned and soaking

Coleman "Fold-n-Go" propane grill - We carry in the side drawer of the 210P

This post is about grilling corn on the cob and baking potatoes, and the grills and methods we use. We do a lot of outdoor cooking. Cooking outdoors is one of the joys and benefits of RVing in our Roadtrek.  There are also practical reasons including more outdoor space for cooking and if we cook outdoors we don't mess up the kitchen area. That reduces the daily cleaning chores. We can grill outdoors if temperatures are moderate.  At temperatures below 45F too much heat is lost and cooking is uneven. However there are ways to cook outdoors, all the way down to freezing if one is so inclined. 

To grill we carry a small propane BBQ in the side drawer of the Roadtrek.  However, because we do most of our grilling in four primary locations we do have a variety of grills available. Three are left at these locations and are available. When cooking outdoors we use propane or electric grills, as well as an electric resistance burner for boiling water for pasta, etc. We also carry an inductive electric burner in the Roadtrek. We use the inductive electric burner with cast iron to cook both inside and outside of the Roadtrek.  When used outdoors the inductive burner and cast iron are a no-mess option for cooking sausage or bacon in the morning. We prefer to conserve propane for use in producing hot water and for the furnace.  We have never used the BBQ grill propane hose that was included in our 2013 Roadtrek 210P. When the regulator for this hose failed for the second time, I removed that regulator and capped the propane piping.  To gain access to that 10 PSI regulator I had to have the rear bumper removed.  Twice is enough!

Our Roadtrek 210P camper van came equipped with three methods of cooking:

1. .Microwave-Convection oven (electric).
2. Two-burner propane range top.
3. Short hose for propane BBQ grill, grill to be provided by the user. 

I added the following:

1. Portable induction (electric) cooktop.
2. Portable electric resistance stovetop burner.
3. Propane BBQ.

Portable Gas Grills

We currently use four different barbecue grills, at various locations. All are modest in size.  My favorite is a Weber Go-Anywhere propane grill. It has precise temperature control, a sufficient cooking area, and a tall lid. But it doesn't fit well in the side drawer of our Roadtrek 210P.  In the Roadtrek we carry a Coleman Fold-n-Go propane grill.  Both of these use the small 16oz. green propane bottles. These bottles can't be recycled; I refill them from larger 20 Lb. bottles. A $6.95 adapter lets me do that and it not only reduces waste, this has saved me a lot of money.  At present propane where we are camping in MI is $3.69 a gallon at Tractor Supply and higher elsewhere. A 16 oz. bottle is about $3.70. I store 20 lb. bottles at each of the "lily pads" and that's where we store three of the larger grills. Two of these are propane and one is an electric Weber Q2400. 

Inductive electric cooktop and Lodge Grill/Griddle - Dinner inside while 15F outside

 - 

Cooking with the Coleman Fold-n-Go and the inductive electric burner with Lodge cast iron

Weber Go-Anywhere propane grill with 14.1 oz propane bottle

Comparison of the Coleman and Weber while on a trek.  Both have folding "legs". What isn't obvious in this photo is the greater height of the removeable lid of the Weber, which we have come to appreciate:

Coleman Fold-n-Go versus Weber Go-Anywhere

The most challenging of the grills to use is the Coleman Fold-n-Go which we carry in the Roadtrek. This is because of the small grilling surface and the low height of the lid.  For example, cooking corn on the cob on the Fold-n-Go can be difficult because the lid will not close completely if the contents are too tall. However, it has one very redeeming feature;  we can carry it in the outside storage compartment of our 210P.  However, we can use a Lodge cast iron reversible grill/griddle which we carry and which is in a photo here.  

We are currently at our campsite in Michigan, on the eastern shore of Lake Michigan. At this seasonal site a neighbor who was vacating put their dual burner Coleman LXE grill up for sale at a very attractive price. Because we are seasonals we purchased it and we store it on site over the winter, when we are elsewhere.  We also have a winter site and we store another grill there. We store a Weber electric grill at our Southwestern site. The Weber Q2400 was provided with a rig we purchased; the price was right; it was free!  After using it for three winter seasons I can say it works very well. 

Sunset tonight

For ease of grilling I like the electric Weber Q2400 better than the Coleman LXE 2-burner propane grill. However, with two burners and a larger cooking area the LXE has some advantages.  One issue with the LXE is it tends to run "hot" and for another, in prevailing breezes the burners will blow out.   I've made some simple modifications, including adding clay tiles, to better distribute the heat. I added a couple of makeshift aluminum foil wads on the ends to reduce the impact of breezes and re-direct airflow. I get better results this way. 

Two clay tiles to moderate the temperature.  The grill can accommodate three tiles. 

A segue into history

Where did I learn to grill?  From my father, who was a DI in the army in WWII. He made me responsible for all of the grilling at the age of 11. Building on that, for the next 20 years I grilled exclusively using charcoal and improved my craft. Charcoal requires a different skill set than does propane fueled grilling. Prior to that I was the short order cook for the family Sunday breakfast. Later I did a lot of camping with the children and as a youth group leader. We made it a challenge to cook exclusively with wood and if available we used a sheep-herder's stove with large flat surface; wood burning, of course. Backpacking and canoeing treks were all about efficiency and light and compact cookware. I camped from (-)25F to (+) 103F. Cooking in the wild is a totally different skill and beyond the scope of this post.

Grilling Corn on the Cob

One note: when I wrap in aluminum foil I put the shiny side inwards (facing the item being cooked) and the dull side outwards, toward the heat source. I want minimum outward reflection of the heat.

We are currently at our campsite in Michigan, on the eastern shore of Lake Michigan. We cook breakfast sausage and bacon outdoors on a cast iron skillet.  We also cook most dinners outdoors using BBQ grill, and cast iron. 

It is mid-July and locally grown corn is available for 50 cents an ear. We enjoy it grilled. Corn on the cob is an American phenomenon. Some years ago, a multinational client brought in a large number of technical staff from Germany. One night we all went to a BBQ and they were appalled that we Americans were ordering corn on the cob as a vegetable. It was understandable. In Germany corn is grown for pigs. German corn has large kernels and is very coarse. It does not resemble the sweet, tender corn that Americans enjoy. 

There are different methods to cook sweet corn. Some boil it but my favorite method is to grill it. I carefully pull back the husk, remove the silk, clean it, soak in water (or salted water), rewrap the husk, trim the excess stalk and wrap in foil.  I cook it for about 45 minutes on a medium grill, turning it at least once.  If the corn is late in the season or has been grown under adverse conditions, I will soak it in a mixture of water and milk.   I have been told that the lactose in the milk is an aid. I really don't know. But, soaking the corn be it in water or milk does improve the juiciness. 

Note: "Medium" heat setting varies from grill to grill. For example, on the Coleman XLE, with only one burner lit, Low" on only burner below the corn is sufficient. With the Weber Go-Anywhere, medium is perfect. Because of heat loss, the Coleman Fold-n-Go requires more tending because of heat loss if the top can't close completely over the ears.  If you want better results, or are new to grilling, then temperature monitoring is helpful. I'll post on that in the near future.

I don't shake the ears before wrapping in aluminum foil. I attempt to retain as much water as possible. The goal is to steam the corn wrapped in foil. I do think the husk improves steaming, adds flavor and it protects the kernels from overheating.  I may slightly overcook the corn and "burn" the husk but the odor is wonderful when the corn is unwrapped.  And, the kernels are fine, protected from overheating by the husk. 

Preparing the corn

Corn silk removed and ready for soaking

Cleaned corn soaking prior to trimming and wrapping in foil

I trim the stalk and then wrap in aluminum foil. I cook for about 40 minutes on "medium" heat, turning 1-3 times. However, grills are notorious for their inconsistency. So, it is best to avoid undercooking.  When the corn is nearly done, I'll add the burgers, or whatever. 

Corn grilling and almost done - add the burgers

After removing it from the grill, I unwrap the foil.

Removed from the foil

Husk removed - butter and then eat

Russet Potatoes on the Grill

Another favorite is baked potatoes. I scrub the potato using a brush for this purpose. When dry I rub with olive oil and then salt it. After that, I wrap it in aluminum foil. To facilitate cooking I use an aluminum skewer or nail.

Oiled and salted potato

Foil wrapped and skewered potatoes - aluminum nails reduce cooking time

Potatoes baking on the Coleman LXE grill - Note the clay tiles

 

I cook the potatoes for 40-60 minutes, depending upon the grill temperature. I flip once or twice. The clay tiles in the photo will reduce potato charring, but with the olive oil rub it is possible to get a nice crisp skin.  We eat the entire potato when prepared this way.

Add a salad, or coleslaw, grilled broccoli and burgers, bratwurst, hot dogs, grilled chicken, steak or salmon and we have a wonderful summer dinner. 

Original Material: Roadtrek210.blogspot.com

Western and Canadian Fires create haze

 

Sunset disappears into smoke and soot - July 19, 8:55pm 

The sunsets over Lake Michigan disappeared in soot and smoke created by fires to the west. 

Fires in Manitoba and Ontario, Canada captured on 11 July 2021, by the VIIRS instrument, aboard the joint NASA/NOAA NOAA-20 satellite:

NASA July 18, 2021 over the Great Lakes

NASA July 19, 2021 over the Great Lakes

The smoke and haze has been noticeable, and the sun became a bright orb at dinner time.  Sunset was at 9:16pm, but the sun faded and had all but disappeared in the western sky by 8:55pm. We were on the eastern shore of Lake Michigan.

Sunset approaching 8:02 pm

8:57 PM - Yes, the evening sun is actually in this photo

Link to NASA:

https://earthdata.nasa.gov/worldview/worldview-image-archive/fires-in-manitoba-and-ontario-canada

Original Material: Roadtrek210.blogspot.com