Roadtrek Propane Tank - Improper Fill Procedures

 

Level indicator on Propane Tank - 87% indicated - is it overfilled?
 How would we know?
 Is that important?

 

Proper and improper filling of the Roadtrek propane tank

There are correct, proper fill procedures for propane tanks. And then, there are improper fill procedures. Improper filling, i.e. "overfilling" can result in a dangerous situation. By comparison, underfilling is merely an inconvenience. This post is about how to fill the onboard Roadtrek propane tank to the proper level.  It is also about that mechanical dial indicator on the propane tank, and the remote LED LPG indicator inside the Roadtrek.  Not all Roadtreks have a remote LED indicator. This is not a "do-it-yourself" post. This is about education and awareness for owners. Only those trained and certified should handle propane.  Sadly, not all attendants are competent to do so and I am writing from experience.  However, I have never had my propane tank overfilled. Attendants have underfilled the tank. I monitor all filling procedures. 

Improper fill procedures can result in a dangerous situation. Propane tanks should never be filled more than 80%. The indicator in the photo above implies that the propane tank is more than 80% full.  If this is so, it is a dangerous situation.  However, the indicator is not there to be used by the attendant to fill the tank. The indicator and a remote LED dot display are for the Roadtrek owner to provide general information about the amount of propane in the tank. It is possible that the mechanical indicator in the photo above is in error. 

This post provides information about the proper procedure to avoid overfilling the propane tank.  It is an informational post and is not a training aid or tutorial.  If one knows the tank has been properly filled that instills confidence. If one knows that the proper procedures have been followed then one also knows what the number on that mechanical dial indicator is representing when the tank has been properly filled to 80% level, and not more or less. 

Underfilled tanks is another improper procedure, but when that occurs it may be inconvenient and it may mean that  you will run out of propane earlier than expected. That too is undesirable, particularly if cold weather RVing. 

Why is more than 80% dangerous?

Why are propane tanks only filled to 80%? Propane in the tank is liquid, and that liquid expands as the tank temperature increases. Above the liquid in the tank is gaseous propane. Propane in a gaseous state is what is burned. The various burners in the Roadtrek appliances are designed for gaseous propane. If liquid propane gets into the piping of the Roadtrek it may get to the burner for the 3-way refrigerator, the furnace or the rangetop as a liquid. Liquid propane will expand rapidly when exposed to air pressure at the burners and it may burn violently. 

The 80% fill point is a cushion to assure that only gaseous propane gets into the propane lines to your appliances. 

There are ample warnings about this in the various Roadtrek manuals. If you don't have one, they are available at the official Roadtrek.com website. 

How does an attendant determine when to shut off the propane when filling the tank?

Obviously, it is important not to overfill the propane tank.  How does an attendant know when to stop filling the tank?

He/she/it does not or should not use the mechanical dial indicator. These indicators are unreliable.  The tank is equipped with a more reliable device. 

The propane tank is equipped with an "outage" valve. This is a small valve mounted on the tank at the 80% full level. It is to be used by the attendant when filling the tank.

Here's a diagram showing the location of an "outage" or bleed valve on a Manchester Tank Co. propane tank, similar to the one in my Roadtrek 210P: 

When an attendant is filling the tank, he/she/it should open the outage valve. It will hiss as the tank is filling with propane, as some gaseous propane escapes. When the liquid propane reaches the level of the outage valve it will "sputter" and some liquid propane will be discharged. This indicates the tank is full to the 80% level.

At this point the attendant should cease filling and close the outage valve. 

Outage valve on the propane tank of my 2013 210P Roadtrek
The outage valve on your Roadtrek may be different

When he/she/it has removed the propane fill valve, you can check the level on the tank indicator. For newer Roadtreks this sensor not only provides local indication, it also transmits this information to the LED display inside your Roadtrek. Here's the tank level gauge in my 2013 210P:

Propane level indicator with wiring for remote indicator
About 30% level indicated

2013 210P "LPG" Propane remote level indicator
LEDs indicate somewhere between 2/3 and 100% level

How to read the mechanical indicator? Is it reliable?

In the photos above you will see the dial indicators on two different propane tanks. They both have a mechanical pointer and one has electrical wiring for a remote indication.  But are they accurate?  That is, do they accurately represent the level of propane in the tank? Most importantly, when the tank is properly filled to 80% what level do they display?

In fact these indicators may not be accurate. It is possible to establish two points for the indicator. One is the display when the tank is at the 80% level and the other is the 0% level. If we have an attendant fill the propane tank to the 80% level using the proper procedure, we can then observe the displayed level on the tank indicator. If it shows "F - 80%" or "Full" that's great. We can also monitor that on the remote LED display on the Roadtrek panel.  If the mechanical display does not show "F" but displays some other value, i.e. "70%" we can mark that in the Roadtrek manual we carry with us as the actual "full" point, in other words, in this circumstance when 70% is displayed the tank level is actually 80%. Similarly, we can check the remote LED indicator inside the Roadtrek if so equipped to see what it displays.

Frankly, there may be inconsistencies.  However, my concern when trekking is 1) I want to avoid unsafe situations and 2) I don't want to run out of propane for hot water. The only energy source for hot water in my 210P is propane. I have electric options for everything else. I use the LED indicator as an "approximation" for the propane tank level.  

Propane Safety Label on my 2013 210P:

Original Material: Roadtrek210P.blogspot.com (c) 2021

Roadtrek Propane Tank and Bleed Valve

 

Tank Rust - February 3, 2017

Preventative maintenance of the Propane Tank

In 2016 I slid under the Roadtrek and did an underside inspection,  I noticed some dings in the propane tanks, flaking of the enamel and some rust. When at the Southwestern Lily Pad  I cleaned the tank exterior, wire brushed the rusty areas and then brushed on a coat of Rust-Oleum white enamel.  The location of the tank is such that it can be struck by rocks and stuff kicked up while driving.

The paint stopped the rust and based upon a recent visual inspection it is in good condition, 5 years later.

Note: It is my understanding that the tank on my Roadtrek is double-walled. I've been a member of the FMCA Roadtrek International Chapter since 2013/2014 and a recent discussion about propane tanks included this comment by a member: “I toured the Roadtrek plant in Kitchener, Ontario a year ago last October. Our plant guide said the propane tank is double lined and any deterioration to the outside is cosmetic and the tank itself should never have to be replaced. "  I can't say that is accurate. Nevertheless, I think preventative maintenance of the exterior is worth it.

I recommend the Roadtrek Chapter and it purports to be "about one of the TOP THREE FMCA Chapters in membership."

Specifications, my 210P:

Roadtrek propane tank size: 10 gallons. 

Weight of 1 gallon of propane: 4.2 pounds

My tank 80% full = 33.6 pounds of propane.

For reference: a small "green" disposable bottle holds 1 pound of propane. 

Photos of Roadtrek tank, before and after cleaning and painting:

Cleaned and wire-brushed

After painting with Rust-Oleum white enamel

Condition of the propane tank -  July 26, 2021

Propane Tank Outage "Bleed" Valve

Some of the Roadtrek manuals include a propane system diagram and a diagram of the propane tank. The tank diagram identifies the location of the fill, shutoff, outage valve and tank level gauge.  If you don't have a manual go to the official Roadtrek website and download one.  They are in pdf format.  Hint: Roadtrek made substantial improvements to later manuals.  Check them on the website and you may find a lot of useful information. Roadtrek website:

Roadtrek owners manuals

Here's a diagram of an RV style tank made by Manchester Tank Co. It is marked to show the "outage valve".  Next is a photo of one style of outage valve made by Manchester tank, and the third is a photo of the tank on my 2013 210P. This was taken with the rear access cover removed.  The arrow points to the "outage" valve. This valve is to be opened by the attendant when filling the tank.  When the tank level reaches 80% liquid will come out of the hole in the center, signifying a full tank.  In my experience, not all attendants do this and so at times the tank is not properly filled.  Usually the tank is underfilled because the attendant shuts off the propane fill at an arbitrary number of gallons.  I prefer to avoid gas stations because the attendants have been trained to fill propane bottles, and are not familiar with on-board propane tanks:

Manchester Tank Co - Illustration of propane tank showing location of outage valve
This is not a Roadtrek propane tank! 

One style of "Outage" or "Bleed Valve" -  Manchester Tank Co .

2013 Roadtrek 210P Propane Tank Bleed Valve - also called an "outage" valve

Main Propane Tank Valve & Components:

1 = Coach Propane Shutoff Valve

2 = Propane Fill Connection

3 = "Outage" valve

4 = Propane fill indicator and sensor for remote indication

Note: I removed the BBQ 10 PSI regulator & hose on my 210P.

Safety Labels on Propane Cover:

Roadtrek had specific safety guidelines.  This is the label on my 2013 210P:

Original Material: Roadtrek210.blogspot.com (c) 2021

Propane Problem Resolved - Regulator Leak

Rear bumper removed to gain access to the propane system

I opened the propane tank shut-off valve and I could hear a "hiss" when kneeling at the shutoff-valve.  This indicated a nearby leak in the system.  Climbing  under the Roadtrek I could barely see the regulators, but could not reach in or determine the source of the leak.  In fact, I used a dentist's mirror to see the regulators. In 2014 the Roadtrek had a propane issue. We could smell propane when at the rear outside of the vehicle. This was repaired by the dealer "under warranty". However, the corrugated black plastic protective shield was not fully closed. Which was why I could see the regulators while on my back and under the vehicle.

I decided to think about the possible solutions.  Obviously, I needed to get to the regulators. I suspected the accessory regulator diaphragm had failed. But there was nothing to do until I could get access, nor could I locate the specific source of the problem until I could gain access.

I had several choices:

1. Take it to a dealer.
2. Do the work myself.
3. Take it to another repair source and share the work.

I pondered the best approach.  I crawled under the Roadtrek a couple of times and concluded there were two methods to gain access to the propane regulator area:

1. Remove the tank and propane components.
2. Remove the rear bumper, thereby exposing the propane components.

The rear bumper of the Roadtred is a fiberglass shell bolted to the original Chevy 3500 steel bumper.  The fiberglass covers the steel bumper which is not visible from the rear.  The Chevy bumper is attached to the chassis with eight bolts.  The fiberglass shell also has two plastic straps attached to the body, acting as stiffeners.

I decided to go to a local repair shop I use in Tucson and discuss the removal of the bumper with them.  I described what I wanted and how the bumper(s) were attached to the Roadtrek frame.  They concluded that they could remove the bumper.  That was the approach I chose.  They would remove the bumper, I would deal with the sourced of the propane issue and then they would re-install the bumper.

The labor cost to remove and re-attach the bumper was $119.43, including Tax.  My material cost was about $10.  It included yellow (natural gas/propane) sealing thread tap, a 1/4 NPT brass cap, 1/4 NPT brass plug (I wasn't  sure which I would need). My material also included Velcro tape to attach the corrugated protective cover over the regulator.

The bumper was removed and the top photo shows it in the garage.

Accessing the Propane Tank and Regulators

The next photo shows the tank and regulators exposed by removal of the rear bumper.  There are two regulators:

1. Chassis regulator - two stage
2. Accessory (grill) regulator - single stage, 10 PSI.

I suspected the single stage regulator was the source of the leak. 

As can be seen in the photo, this model Roadtrek (2013 210P) has the regulators installed above the 10,000 lb. hitch frame.  Because the regulators are sandwiched between the bumpers and the propane tank, there is absolutely no access from below with the tank and bumper attached. 

Rear Bumper Removed, exposing Propane tank and Regulators

To check for the source(s) of the leak I made a soapy mixture and sprayed it on the piping and on the weep hole of the 10 PSI regulator.  These regulators have an internal spring-loaded diaphragm. The diaphragm can fail and if it does, propane can leak to the spring side of the regulator and from there to atmosphere via a pressure weep hole.

I sprayed the mixture on the regulator, opened the propane valve slightly and the leak became readily apparent, as can be seen in the photo:

Propane Leak at Regulator Sprays water

Remove or Replace the Regulator?

With the source of the leak identified I had two choices:

1. Replace the accessory regulator.
2. Remove the accessory regulator.

Because this was the second problem in this area since 2014 and the fact that I have never used the accessory propane connection I decided to remove the accessory regulator and install a brass plug or cap, as required.

Removing the regulator and capping the propane piping

I removed the regulator and a brass street-elbow and attempted to remove a short fitting but it was really stubborn. I was going to install a plug in the tee, but that wasn't possible. So I decided to install a cap instead of a plug.

Remove the accessory propane hose clamp

Remove the Accessory Regulator and hose

Regulator and hose removed

Brass cap installed with yellow gas sealing tape

I reinstalled the hose clamp using the original screw. That was the easiest method to seal the hole. I then removed a street elbow and installed a 1/4 NPT brass cap using yellow gas sealing tape; that is very important. The proper seal must be installed.  White Teflon tap must not be used. After tightening the cap I opened the propane valve and applied a liberal amount of soapy water to the existing Tee and the new cap.  No leaks were detected. 

Testing the Propane System

To test the system I lit the range top burner.  Success.  I then returned the Roadtrek to the shop so they could wrap the propane dual-stage regulator with the original plastic protective "box" using velcro strapping I provided.  They then re-attached the bumper.

Range top works again on propane

Final Assembly

There were two plastic stiffeners to hold the left and right caps of the fiberglass bumpers. I drilled out the pop-rivets and re-attached. One had been previously damaged. I replaced it with plastic strapping material I got at the hardware store.

Final Step

The next step will be to put fresh water in the tanks and turn on the hot water heater.  That will be tomorrow.

Additional Information - Rusty propane tank

You may notice that the propane tank is white but dirty.  In fact, when I had the first propane issue in 2014 I crawled under the tank and noticed some pits and dings which were rusty.  I assume this was caused by stones and other road debris being tossed up and onto the tank.  I cleaned the tank with a solvent and then applies white Rust-o-leum paint.  The tank still looks good.  I am a firm believer of Preventative Maintenance as a means to minimize breakdowns.

Original material http://roadtrek210.blogspot.com/ (c) 2021